Riiiight, in response... no hard feelings meant at all, of course- the 'Tavern' reference is to a Christianity discussion group I go to every week to talk about similar things. But just because I don't have a religion it shouldn't mean I'm not allowed to voice my thoughts as vocally

About the concept of hell- yes I am aware that modern Christians believe it to simply be a place without God. But if you die that's it, and apparently there's no way to repent. I have to convert when I'm alive, and if I should see the pearly gates and realise I was wrong that's not good enough.

Point taken about men > women, I was being a m0ng

Crono, the point about the bombs in the boxes wasn't referring to living life without guidance, it was about living forever in heaven.

The points in 'why are people Christian' are not meant to each be good enough, but they're often good enough at convincing people to start believing- the person in particular this is aimed at is particularly convinced in the martyrs.

Maze, some excellent thoughts there But in particular, you've used the standard Christian line that you have to have sin if you want free will, but I don't see why that it is true, and why there has to be a balance. Why could we not be created with a simple inability to sin, or at least stronger subconscious 'strings' stopping us from doing so? What's wrong with my 'I want to fly but I can't' analogy? There are several people in my life who I love, but I do not even come close to hating anyone (and I'm pretty sure I'd still love those people if there was no hate in the world). But anyway, I stand by most of the other things I said, and have dropped a few as I have misunderstood

Tracer, why is your faith more 'personal'? Have you encountered Christianity but rejected it, or come to the conclusion that there must be a god etc.? The people I've talked to aren't particularly fundamental, they don't take it literally, although one of my good friends does think all the stories have some kind of literal truth. Got him worrying right now over the passge in one of the gospels about thousands of saints rising out of their graves and appearing before people after Jesus was crucified

Oh and Maze, why don't Jews believe that Jesus was the son of God? Why are they wrong about Christ being just another prophet?

As a born again christian, I just want to say...

I believe the Bible completely and to it's literal meaning. I believe the Bible we have today is the bible God wants us to have today. We only sin by the law it says in the Bible, therefore those who have no opportunity to find out are not held responsible for their 'sinful' actions I.E Younger kids, tribes etc.

The only other thing I would say is If I'm right, I go to heaven, people who don''t believe don't. However If i'm wrong and say, you Lep, are right what do I really lose?

But there were some good arguments there Lep.

G

lemme see if i can make some sort of sense, since everyone so far has been able to, at least to some degree.

my biggest complaint i guess about religion, is the assumption the believers have that i must believe too, or somehow i am evil.. they have no room at all in their narrow outlook for another kind of good, that in itself has been the key reason i scorn it so strongly.

also, when people tell me that they will pray for me, i find that so insulting, i just cannot stress the level of how insulting it is, as if i really needed their prayers.

also, everyone assumes that the words "god bless you" is somehow an acceptable farewell statement, to assume such just insults me to no end.

The symbolism displayed in todays religious sects is bordering on the criminal.. there are several churches throughout this state alone, that seem hell bend on creating the largest church in the land, i have to wonder, exactly where all this influx of cash has come from.. there is just no honest way known to acquire funds capable of building a million dollar church.

also, (and i cannot or will not confirm this for personal reasons) but i hear that religious sects do not have to pay taxes in the USA, that is horrible, the thought of all that money and no one paying a cent in taxes, while we on the outside are taxed into the poorhouse.

in texas (and illinois) are two of the biggest crosses in the whole world, millions must have been spent on them, and for what? symbolism again? the money could have been better spent on feeding hungry children, or housing them.. plus, the assumption that everyone wants to see them...

anyways, i realize that for the most part all my reply sounds like a rant, but its honestly how i view it.. if someone thinks its nothing more than the raving of an ignorant, please refrain, i do not need reminded of my lacks..

With regard to all the issues surrounding hell, and in particular the damnation of babies and other innocents, I think Dante gives the best statement of a traditional orthodox Christian position. In the Inferno, Virgil explains to Dante that damned souls are not punished by God or anyone else. His exact doctrine is highly subtle, but here is my rough interpretation:

The course our life on Earth is a time during which we severally develop our characters. This is the period during which our nature is open to change. Once we die, the fundamental natures of our souls become eternal and are incapable of change. Only if we our nature is good enough are we capable of benefitting from purgatory and salvation. It is not that God withholds His mercy from the souls of the damned; rather, He cannot change their fundamental nature (for this would be like erasing their very identity). The souls of the repentent, though capable of receiving mercy, require assistance in the form of God's grace.

To be damned is to be sundered from God. There are various ways in which one can become damned; these correspond to the various ways in which one's soul can turn away from God. In the case of babies and virtuous pagans, their souls are not capable of turning to God because they have not had a chance to develop a character that is receptive to grace. However, their lives are free from blemish and so they are condemned to exist very much in the same way that they did on Earth. The only difference is that, as immortal souls, they possess certain special knowledge - including the knowledge that God exists. Thus their existence is one free from outright suffering, and as pleasant as an Earthly life, but they despair for they know that they are forever incapable of entry into paradise. Their only sin is that they did not hope for better things; they are allotted in eternity as much as they hoped for in life.

The virtuous pagans and the innocents exist in limbo, just outside "hell proper". As Dante journeys further into the pit, he encounters progressively more heinous sins and corresponding degrees of "self-inflicted" misery.

The whole of the Comedia is well worth examining for a sublime yet humane statement of the traditional Christian view. Even if you are not Christian there is a powerful and instructive allegorical message.

It's a personal view (Dante's), based upon the long-standing religious doctrine of the time (about AD 1300). It's not really based on any more authoritative sources - the Comedia ("Divine Comedy") is itself probably one of the most influential books ever written!

Well worth reading in my opinion. I recommend the translation by Dorothy Sayers, unless you can read the original Italian. The Paradiso can be a bit tedious, but it's worth reading to the end.

Whatever your thoughts on religion, you cannot simply pass it off as a destructive, backward force. A lot of todays institutions of law, politics and education are built from religious roots and the morals we use (including non-Christians such as myself) are based on religion. You simply wouldn't have society as we know it today without organised religion IMO.

The argument should not be about whether religion is "real" or otherwise, its about how we interpret and exercise our beliefs in a considerate, peaceful manner..

IN reply to Lep's point about the creation and 4 corners of the earth,

I do believe that God spoke and the earth was created. God is Omnipotent.

God was speaking (I am now reffering to the part in Revelation, although their may be other instances in which he refers to the earth with 4 corners.) to the Church in vivid imagery, and it was necessary for him to explain that, the WHOLE world was going to be included in this vision, and to do that he used the phrase that would be understood at the time. The literal meaning was whole world, bearing in mind this instance was in the middle of an incredibly symbolic vision. God used visions and reams that often needed interpreting. But events that actually happened I take as happened.