absolutetly nothing.....if i truly belive that the water is wet, and you dont, then i WILL try to prove it to you....what i said was "force thier beliefs on you"...that aspect i have a great problem with...ie...the hari chrishna's knocking on my door at 6 oclock in the morning on sunday....bah...take a hike. but if i ask what your views on a religion are, then i better be prepared for a lengthy discussion; and, the only way i would ask, is if i truly wanted to know....

Whats wrong with people who pray for you in their own way even if you don't believe in it? It shows that they care about you and are compassionate people.

and i have absolutely no problem with anyone praying for me as a compassionate and caring person....that is their right, imho....its what they believe will help me, the heathen, what makes them "comfortable" in this world, what they need to get thru the day, so be it.....but DO NOT expect me to reciprocate, and DO NOT be offended if i dont take them seriously, because that is MY right....

i will say tho, i am a bit of a hipocrite....i know alot of people that have been shot and missed, shot at and hit, and have found myself praying to God to get me through it, even to the extent of something like, "if you get me thru this s**t God, ill go to church every sunday for the rest of my days".....well, it was horses**t then, and its horses**t now...."battlefield religion"....its what i needed to "GET ME THRU THE NIGHT"....

Doc Brass...

let me make this clear, i hope everyone gets the gist of my comment.

when this topic first started, i felt a twinge, one that said "no way this will end well"

ok, picture a funnel, the big top part is the beginning post, everyone is all about in the same location, as we each post, we slide toward the smaller end, i now feel we are at the bottom of this funnel, and its very damned crowded in here, if someone doesn't stop putting stuff into the top of this funnel, its going to cause trouble at the bottom..

get my drift?

this topic started off ok, its not quite as ok any-longer.

it has drifted into personal, a place EVERYONE should have known NOT to take it to.. being agnostic myself, leans me in a direction few share, at least at my level of dedication to the idea... but i am open minded enuff to realize that anyone who ventures into the realm of taking this personally, have CLOSED themselves off from anything resembling "unbiased comprehension"

i recommend this topic declared, "paid in full" and closed to further input, from anyone.. anyone!

/ 2 cents

its just very upsetting to see people i actually seek out for advice, acting this way.

if all i can do to keep the peace, is continually pointing out the lack of peace, i will.

discussion ends, when passion enters..

I'm silent on this issue i'm afraid, I know about but not in depth to give accurate "opinions" on religion..

I will say however, I feel it is a deeply personal part of peoples lives which should not be attacked, and just the same it should not be forced upon others.

I think the biggest moral and attitude certain people need to take is one of respect, and then we can truly "flourish", as it were

I'll keep watching for now!

Coming from a country where religion is not a vain word (20 years of civil religious wars) I ?d like to say a few words on the subject.>>

I think the points that Leperous pointed out, in a rather provocative way, are normal questionnings anyone with a scientific mind would ask himself. There are indeed a lot of contradictions in Christian theories(judgement day, hell, etc..), and any religion in general. But then again, it?s about faith, feelings. You cannot use logical arguments to understand God, life, or love... >>

The essence of christianism is- or was- an excellent ?set of morals? to use Lep?s words. The first christian societies were an ideal communist society, where the rich gave spontaneously to the poor, where people cared truly for each other (as we can see in movies like Quo Vadis, the Robe, etc..). So from a social point of vue, it was an excellent thing! Unfortunately, during the years, men corrupted this concept; the result was wars, ignorance, fanatism? The Inquisition is an example of wrong christianism: burning scientists and protestants for being heretics, or sorcerers, that?s definitely not what christianism is about.>>

I think Islam is now in a phase similar to Inquisition, where fanatism, ignorance, and hatred are blinding everyone, and corrupting what was once a very tolerant and open religion. Muslim intellectuals are scared to speak out their opinion, and I believe women are afraid to look sexy, when some bearded guy can just show up, and start shouting at them?>>

Anyway, religion is a good thing, especially christianism; it can enlighten your life with love, hope and openness to the others. Tribal thinking is something else. That creates wars, racism. And superstition is also something else?>>

> >

The reason why your friends recently ?remembered?christanism can be either, the need for a more intuitive, more poetic presence in their materialistic world ( work, money ?), which is a good thing, or it can be a counter-reaction against the rise of Islam (as we see it on the news, even though terrorists are not at all representatives of this religion ), which can be a bad thing, cause I don?t think you can fight fanatism with fanatism; it will only make it worse.>>

> >

p.s: If anyone is wondering, I am christian. (Maronite: that?s an oriental rite)>>

This is a rather heady topic, even for this forum. I find all the statements in here to be interesting reading though. As the son of a minister who also happens to be a free thinker, I feel I have been blessed with the ability to see all points of views as valid to some extent. Religion in general , I believe, is ingrained within the human blueprint. Similar to the survival instinct in nature. It is an ironic reaction to being conscious, or a curse rather, a result of being able to question ones own origins and purpose. The basic tennet of most religions is to behave in a way that promotes the species ability to propogate and prosper.

There are however, many parts to the human blueprint. As well as the afforementioned, there is emotion and all that that word entails. Most people are just too lazy, or confused, or frightened to want to figure the important questions out for themselves. They are easily led. A great deal of good has come from religious based belief systems, however just as much is true of the opposite. There is a blackness in the human heart. In every human heart.

The problem I believe is in those who choose or are chosen to lead. It's a crapshoot, like all things in a so called freewill existence. While there are some brilliant teacher/Leaders in the world,there are also those who let greed and malevolence become their standard. When these types come into power, people (lazy, confused, frightened) are willing to take shortcuts to gain long term profits(eternal existence, favor with god, etc) regardless of the cost to others, in most cases whether they have the same beliefs or not. Much like in the business world. Again, human nature.

As for God, I choose to believe in some way that there is something greater out there. I can't imagine our existence as some sort of galactic anomoly. It's too amazing to believe that our existence is a fluke. As for mankind, I feel that the human species in general is not responsible or mature enough for the current concept of religion. Too many of us, view it as a valid excuse for the most terrible of actions. I can only hope that evolution will fix this problem in time, however I am pretty sure it won't be in my lifetime.

Some of the best A** reamings I have recieved in my time have come from so called "Good Christians". I have also seen some amazing acts of kindness and self sacrifice. There is a definite Yin and Yang to all things in the known universe. There simply can be no knowledge of what is finally right. It goes against nature, and maybe god.Like knowing or being told the end of a great story before reading the book, or seeing the movie. It could quite possibly ruin it for you.

Why should god show himself to you?. How do you know he does'nt?. Perhaps we are as unaware of his presence as ants are of our existence. In the end, and until further notice, we are all left only with the ability to choose the type of life we lead.That is our gift. Perhaps heaven/hell will be the legacy we leave to our future generations.

I hope this has not been too rambling.

Is this really enough for even the most dour of scientists? I don't dispute that this explanation is likely to be true, but it doesn't seem to be a sufficient explanation. There are different levels of explanation, and the most primitive - molecules/atoms/quantum events/whatever - is not necessarily the most illuminating for a given context. A higher level of explanation (e.g. at the level of intentional states) may be reducible to a lower level in principle, but that does not mean that our knowledge about the higher level can entirely be gained by studying the lower. In other words, high level explanations are reducible to low level ones, but not in an eliministic way.

You won't learn much about life and love by studying chemistry or quantum physics.

I never said there was anything more than that. I certainly don't believe there is any guiding hand.

What I am trying to explain is that mental/intentional states (such as beliefs, emotions, spirituality etc) are not well-described by physical terms. I believe, just as you do, that they arise from very complex physical events. You do not have to postulate anything supernatural in order to recognise the inadequacy of physical explanations for our intentional and emotional states.

Suppose that we were to have some deep-and-meaningful-type discussion about some emotional issue. Would you try to describe it in purely physical terms? Say, "this chemical affected my brain in this way, and led to a change in my behaviour in such a manner"?

And the universe doesn't suck, nor is it "good" or "bad" or "scary" or "big". It just is. It is only our perspective on life that makes us attribute these sorts of human-relative predicates to the universe.

Incidentally, for all that I am arguing "against" you, I share much the same viewpoint. In particular, I believe that religion and spirituality proceed from a need for security and meaning in a universe of which we are a more-or-less irrelevant part. That doesn't reduce their value in the slightest, however!