-Orph, the problems you have are with the church as far as I can tell, not with god. I myself do not belong to any particular church. any organization of people christian or otherwise becomes twisted from its purpose in time, most particularly in a capitalist society. the largest of churches have generaly lost sight of their faith in a flood of material gain. it also sounds as though most of your experience is with what i call "rapid christians". these people are always throwing religion in your face and behaving in the most ignorant boorish evangalistic manner possible. people like this are what gives faith a bad name. I believe that everyones path to god and eternity is different. there is no one "way". if you want a jesus quote for that try this on for size. "in my fathers house there are many rooms"

Lep- I was raised christian, but fortunatly for me my father is also a scientist who raised me as such. It might be correct to say that I have rejected the church, but not christianity. my faith is highly personal because I have thought about it and devloped many of my own ideas rather than accepting some standard line form whatever church.

Oh and in responce to the thing about the taxes, I believe that churches are subject to the same rules as any non-profit corporation, which makes perfect sense. after all, even if they build huge buildings, nobody becomes a millionair through the church, except maybe TV evangelists.

you are probably right, as long as everyone here understands, i really don't know anyone well enuff to be singling anyone out.. its just how i view it all.

i am not attacking religion, because it exists, i am only ... well i am not sure exactly what my goal here is, other than to put my 2 cents in somehow.. i am not trying to convert, pervert or any other vert.

also, i have met people who truly have faith, and they liked me just the way i was.. no praying for me, no insulting whats so ever.. it was almost enuff to make me believe, their god truly did them right

anyways, i meant no harm to anyone at SP

Let me break it down for you Lep: you've just trashed my own mother as ignorant, morally and mentally inept, selfish and thoroughly un-enlightened. Shall I now politely and calmly engage you in quiet discussion upon your qualms about a religion which you have little concept of? I don't really think so.

You can question what I believe in any day of the week, dear Leperous, but you will do it politely and you will do it with respect, otherwise it has no meaning to me as being anything but a resentful insult.

Lastly, you seem to have done little to actually understand my post. There is no 'smarter' religion, no spirituality supermarket. "Oh, you got Islam today? Always a solid choice." No.

forums are bad at he best of times for communicating ideas, but oh dear.

if i say that i believe in god, it would be safe to say that every one of you would have a different idea of what it was that i actually believe. some may picture an old guy with a big white beard, sitting on a throne, surrounded by fluffy white clouds and little cherubims. if you have that image of god, then thats what YOU believe in, not me.

even athiests, Lep, will conjure up some sort of image or concept, and having read through your .doc, i see that you would be quite right not to believe in the image that you have.

[edit] would someone care to define the term 'believe in', because if it's the same as 'believe god exists', then doesn't that mean that the devil will get into heaven?[/edit]

-Fishy,

What you say is true regaurdless of the medium of exchange. even if we were all sitting in the same room we'd still have wildly differing concepts of god. One of the things that makes the Pit so great, is the wide range of intelligent people with wildly differing values who are perfectly willing to share them. You can find idiots expressing their opinions anywhere; it's hard to find the same thing with thoughtfull individuals.

I think the diffaculties of mapping must help to filter out some of the morons.

? posted by fishy

/me *blushes*

meant it.. you said alot, in very few words.. a true spokesperson indeed.

aside from my utter confusion about this quote.. i can only concede, that you must know what you just said.

i stand corrected.

Cassius, don't try to turn this into a flame war. I did not attack your mother, and I certainly never called anyone ignorant, inept, selfish or un-enlightened. 'Wrong,' yes, and if you take offence at that I don't give a crap. I'm sure you're thinking that's what I am, but I guess that's okay because you believe in a religion and it's okay for you to voice your opinion.

Christianity is a very clever concept and I have yet to find an arguement to destroy it (like I haven't found one to prove it utterly), but I still believe it to simply be an attempt to try to fulfill our lives, to give it a purpose and to feel better during it. And there is nothing at all wrong with that- my friend has actually since 'converted' and I'm happy for her as she seems to be happier now she's decided- but I don't need it, and most people can live a perfectly happy life either without fooling themselves.

Anyway yes there were some stupid things said in it and I've taken it down for some editing.