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Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Le Chief on Thu Feb 3rd at 1:29pm 2011

How's everyone's entries going? I've almost finished mine but for some reason it's gotten really laggy all of the sudden. I suspect it's due to me lowering the lightmaps on some of the surfaces but I havent fully looked into it. The Source engine is SO outdated. smiley


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Finger on Thu Feb 3rd at 2:26pm 2011

Muhnay - looks like you've gone a good bit over the 20 brush count. I'm counting at least 18 brushes in the lower track alone. Those corners are expensive - 4 brushes each.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by ReNo on Thu Feb 3rd at 3:31pm 2011

Hey guys, glad to see you're working on your entries smiley A few thoughts on the topic, after having entered Mapcore's 20 brush contest...

I think the most important thing when making a 20 brush map is learning to toss aside some of your usual "rules". Clean brushwork has gotta go. Ignore trying to be technically correct in how you build things. Overlap stuff like crazy. Make stuff at weird angles and don't worry if things sit flush. For my entry into the mapcore contest almost every brush overlaps with every other brush - it's an absolute mess that I'd be horribly ashamed of were it not for the fact that getting much of interest out of 20 brushes outright demands that sort of building.

Each brush has to work more than double-time when you've only 20 of them to make use of. If you can extend a wall through another wall then clip it so it serves as a ramp on to the top of the wall, and then vertex manipulate it so that it extends down through the floor as well and acts as a pillar to support that whole structure up above a lower level, then do it.

Another tip - forget about subtlety and softness. Focus on the larger picture and create bold shapes and forms. An example of this: you can't have concave curves anywhere. If you ever want any sort of concavity, it has to be of the ultra-efficient, straight-line, do-not-pass-go sort. If you want a corridor, consider making the walls angled and meet at a point so as to cut out the need for a ceiling and so make it out of 3 brushes instead of 4. If you want a curved corner piece like Muhnay has on his walkway, make it out of a quarter of a cylinder then clip the inside edge to a straight line so you can make it out of just 1 brush. Outside edges can be as curved as you like however! In muhnay's map those concave curved sections have pushed his brush count way above 20 - using the "arch" tool creates as many brushes as your curve has segments, it just groups them, which does not mean it is a single brush!

Some thoughts on the maps shown...

Orph:
I think the canal here has the potential to be more than it is just now. How about raising one side of it up 128/256 units or something, so you can only come out of the water on the lower side, and ramps at either end (or bridges or whatever) link one half to the other. The upper ground has the benefit of allowing the player to drop down at any point into the canal or over onto the other side. I think that as it stands just now, the canal doesn't really justify it's brush cost. Make it more significant to the layout rather than just a visual element and it will.

Muhnay:
I don't like being the bearer of bad news, but you've definitely got more than 20 brushes in there. The problem really lies in the arches you've used. Each of the corner pieces is built out of 4 brushes - the arch tool just combines multiple brushes into a group. So ultimately those corner pieces alone use up 16 brushes of your 20, which is obviously not gonna work. You can make them cost just 1 brush if you use a quarter of a cylinder for each corner, and then clip the inside of it to 45 degrees. It won't look as good, but at a cost of just 4 brushes round the map instead of 16, it is far more efficient! Looks pretty cool otherwise though smiley

Aaron:
Definitely a bit dark. I do like the objects jutting out of the land though. Overall it gives me a trench warfare vibe. Not quite sure what you're going for thematically with the textures used so far, but looking forward to seeing what you do!

Anyway, good luck to everyone in the contest, hoping to see some cool entries smiley



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Thu Feb 3rd at 5:00pm 2011

Thanx Duncan. I appreciate the comments. Sadly I am about to begin my busy time of year and doubt seriously that I'll be home much for a while and mapping is at present a home activity until I get my new laptop at least. I do have several ideas yet to incorporate into that particular layout, coincidentally at least one you mentioned.

Thanx again bud.




The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Feb 4th at 12:24am 2011

Alternatively muhnay instead of that concave ring being made of 20 brushes, you could make the same shape with a single convex brush without the inside bit. Then you could make a large texture for the top of the new convex brush and simulate the concave ring on the texture. Maybe the middle bit could be a semi transparent force field then you could put a trigger hurt in the middle (which is free) and that would function the same as how it is now?

And thanks for those comments Reno. smiley Here's the latest on my map:



I'm a bit unsure for the texturing, a bit lost smiley.

I'm going to redo the texture for the three pylons, because both the faces and the main texture could be much better. I'm also going to probably change the texture on the "obstacles". Something with less noise/contrast and maybe make it a tiled marble texture instead of just a plain marble texture. I think the light bridge texture needs to look more vibrant. But other than that I'm happy with it.

I'm also trying hard to add trim because it just looks awkward despite this being a 20 brush comp, I think effort into trying to integrate trim will pay off.


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 4th at 12:31am 2011

Caught it didn'tcha Aaron. smiley
I dunno how Duncan woulda took that typo.



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Feb 4th at 12:33am 2011

Haha yeah smiley I've always associated Gwil and Reno together for some reason and often get mixed up between the two. smiley


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 4th at 12:34am 2011

Odd, if I recall they aren't even on the same island. smiley



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by ReNo on Fri Feb 4th at 2:17am 2011

Afraid you're wrong there Orph; Gwil and I are indeed island buddies! Wales and Scotland have plenty of differences, but being attached to England is something we both have in common smiley

As for Aaron; oooh I'll forgive what I presume to have been the corrected mistake, this time :P

New shot is looking pretty cool. The textures are a bit inexplicable, but as I've no idea what this structure *is* it actually gets away with that to an extent! I understand the texturing predicament perfectly anyway - when building with 20 brushes you can end up making some pretty funky shapes that don't lend themselves well to texturing. For that reason I ended up just using a really simple, low-detail concrete texture across my entire level and calling it done.

I like your use of glowing texture "trims"; they kinda light up the dangerous edges and reminds you to watch your step. Is the larger brush on the right accessible?



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 4th at 2:29am 2011

I can never keep those danged islands separated in my noggin. I reckon I'll have to try harder. Now if you were to ask me where all the 50 US states are...

I always find it amazes me that I can drive further in one day than those islands are long.

My record was 1250 miles. My average is about 800.



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by omegaslayer on Fri Feb 4th at 3:01am 2011

Monhay might have used displacements like here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/snarkpower/articles/game/cat/pn/tp/146/Texture_alignment_through_arches_using_displacement_maps

To cut down on the brushes.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Feb 4th at 3:08am 2011

I thought about making the larger block accessible but I think it's best to have it as a visual thing not to mention I've reached my 20 brush limit now so it would be quite difficult to properly integrate. I'm just going to leave it as an anomaly/visual piece like the mysterious island in the first level of Goldeneye. smiley


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 4th at 12:28pm 2011

Quoting omegaslayer
Monhay might have used displacements like here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/snarkpower/articles/game/cat/pn/tp/146/Texture_alignment_through_arches_using_displacement_maps

To cut down on the brushes.


So let me get this straight cause I am still confused: The block tool takes "1" brush and makes it many brushes (the number you set before hand) and then the displacement tool makes it "1" brush again?

This is how you make arches with one brush?



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by ReNo on Fri Feb 4th at 12:52pm 2011

Ok I'm not too sure on where the confusion is coming from so I'll try to explain the whole lot smiley

In the source engine, any many others, brushes have to be convex. That is to say they can never "bend in" on themselves at all. It's a really important fundamental that is one of the most common causes of people creating invalid brushes with vertex manipulation.

Curves like those in Muhnay's walkways are concave shapes. The inside edge of the curve bends *in* to the shape, hence it is concave. This sort of shape cannot be created from a brush, because the brush would be concave and hence invalid. So when making shapes like that you need to build it up out of multiple brushes, each of which convex.

The arch tool does exactly that. You can see each individual brush quite clearly as the edges are visible. The arch tool groups the brushes together when it builds them for convenience, but if you select it and ungroup (or use the "ignore groups" button) you'll see that each segment of the curve is just a regular old convex brush.

Now as omega pointed out, you can use displacements to get around this. Displacements may be based upon the face of a brush, but they are not brushes. Just like they don't block VIS, they are not bound by the same convex-only restriction. So as shown in that tutorial you can move the vertices around however you see fit, and in doing so you can create concave shapes like that arch.

HOWEVER, each displacement you use only covers one face, and each displacement you use (if the rules are the same as Mapcore's) counts as a brush. So to create the curve shown in that tutorial would actually cost 4 brushes - one for the displacement on the top face, one on each side, and one on the bottom. As Muhnay was already using 4 brushes on each corner, this wouldn't actually result in any saving. On the other hand, it *would* let him create a much more smooth curve while still just using 4 brushes.

I hope that's clarified things and not just further muddled them!



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 4th at 1:30pm 2011

Quoting ReNo
Ok I'm not too sure on where the confusion is coming from so I'll try to explain the whole lot smiley
Given the participants you can still wonder? Seriously Duncan, it seems that only I am the confused one. I still fail to see whats the difference between using the arch tool (which converts one brush into many) and overlapping brushes (which also creates many).. That's how the confusion originally began. I cannot see any difference. Each action creates more brushes. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE in in the editor before its compiled and you check the "Map information of brushes used"


Quoting ReNo

HOWEVER, each displacement you use only covers one face, and each displacement you use (if the rules are the same as Mapcore's) counts as a brush. So to create the curve shown in that tutorial would actually cost 4 brushes - one for the displacement on the top face, one on each side, and one on the bottom. As Muhnay was already using 4 brushes on each corner, this wouldn't actually result in any saving. On the other hand, it *would* let him create a much more smooth curve while still just using 4 brushes.


Given what you just indicated, if someone used the arch tool with more brushes to smooth the edges, someone could save solids with the displacement I suppose. Then again, no one will see the under side of the path so the bottom displacement might be unused.



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by ReNo on Fri Feb 4th at 2:42pm 2011

I think that the aim of the contest is just to use 20 convex brushes as they're defined in hammer. Don't worry about the post-compile result of how they get chopped up and handled by the game engine itself, as by that point they've ceased to be brushes anyway and been chopped up and combined where possible into faces. Making a brush overlap and pass through others to come out the other side is messy, but it's still just one brush. When you create a curve with the arch tool, it's made up of more than one brush instantly, it isn't converted in any way, it's just made a bunch of brushes that are grouped in the same way you might group any set of brushes yourself.



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 4th at 2:54pm 2011

To quote another Rascal "Ohtay fine" smiley



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by omegaslayer on Fri Feb 4th at 7:11pm 2011

Quoting ReNo

HOWEVER, each displacement you use only covers one face, and each displacement you use (if the rules are the same as Mapcore's) counts as a brush. So to create the curve shown in that tutorial would actually cost 4 brushes - one for the displacement on the top face, one on each side, and one on the bottom. As Muhnay was already using 4 brushes on each corner, this wouldn't actually result in any saving. On the other hand, it *would* let him create a much more smooth curve while still just using 4 brushes.


I was actually thinking the entire displacement could not only be the curves, but also the straight walk way. Which, in theory, would only count as 3 brushes (top and two sides, no need to do bottom) per side of walk way, so he could reduce both sides to a total of 6 brushes.
___________ -> \________/



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by tnkqwe on Sat Feb 5th at 5:32pm 2011

A bit late, but this is my first attempt. I call it "Small and ruined".



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I made it for maybe 20-30 minutes.

But it's ultra small. So I might make something else.

Edit:

Here is the new one:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I made it for around 10 minutes...

Now I have to decide which one to give...


Never think about bad things!
TNKqwe:The New Killer qwe

I am Engineer - Play Free Online Games

Citizen Arms



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 Re: Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition
Posted by Le Chief on Sun Feb 6th at 10:56am 2011

Tnkqwe your first map looks more like a construction site than it does ruins to me and judging by the screenshot you've only used 3 textures. Maybe the brick texture on the outside perimeter of the map could be something else? The corner peices you have at the top of the concrete framework could also be textured in something else. Just to add some more variety to the map.

And in your second level the containers look huge compared to the building texture on the outside of the map. It's also very flat.


Aaron's Stuff




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