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Two Questions About Random # Generators
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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Niborius on Sun Feb 5th at 9:01pm 2012

1: How exactly does a true Random Number Generator work? I tried to read some information about it on Random.org, but I didn't get much wiser from it. I read that some random number generators use radio frequencies to get a totally random result every time or something?

Could someone explain all this on a way that isn't too complicated?

2: If you were to generate a random number, and the outcome would be for example 42. Then if you were to go back in time 10 seconds and randomize it again, would the outcome be different? Meaning you have altered the timeline on a different way than earlier?

Which also makes me think, in series where someone goes back in time 30 years from now, every action he makes obviously changes the current timeline. But people make choices as well. Will everyone make the same choices again even if that time-traveler doesn't do anything in those 30 years?

What if he went back in time and forth immediately?

Hope I'm not asking the impossible here smiley


Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/Nibgames



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Crono on Sun Feb 5th at 9:29pm 2012

Various Mathematical functions are used to simulate randomness. Random number generators, though, are not random ... at all, they're pragmatic. That's why you see a lot of repeats in your music playlist when shuffle is on smiley

The same number would be chosen again, based on the key. In fact, with the same key the same number will always be chosen.

The type of generator that uses natural measurable values to procure a number are few and far between. (You'd have mandatory use of various wireless features on devices just for generating numbers? That sounds needlessly expensive when a deterministic generator will work just fine usually)

You can read more about randomizing algorithms here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_algorithm and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

To be honest, most applications people use random number generators for ... you don't actually want "random" functionality. A music playlist is an example. Sure, you just want the songs to not be played in order ... but you should do some other things to make it better (which music players do NOT do) like keep a list of recently played tracks. Or mark data based on the user skipping one track over another. Things like that.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by tornados2111 on Sun Feb 5th at 9:33pm 2012

Crono gave a more adequate answer, I decided to remove mine :S



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Niborius on Sun Feb 5th at 10:09pm 2012

Quoting Crono
Various Mathematical functions are used to simulate randomness. Random number generators, though, are not random ... at all, they're pragmatic. That's why you see a lot of repeats in your music playlist when shuffle is on smiley

The same number would be chosen again, based on the key. In fact, with the same key the same number will always be chosen.

The type of generator that uses natural measurable values to procure a number are few and far between. (You'd have mandatory use of various wireless features on devices just for generating numbers? That sounds needlessly expensive when a deterministic generator will work just fine usually)

You can read more about randomizing algorithms here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_algorithm and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

To be honest, most applications people use random number generators for ... you don't actually want "random" functionality. A music playlist is an example. Sure, you just want the songs to not be played in order ... but you should do some other things to make it better (which music players do NOT do) like keep a list of recently played tracks. Or mark data based on the user skipping one track over another. Things like that.


My music player tends to play some songs more than other songs indeed.

Ok, so most of the time, they really aren't random at all.

But what about random.org then? They say it generates a "true" random integer, as explained here: http://www.random.org/faq/

Or am I missing something you already answered?

@Tornados2111: Are you sure? Any answer is accepted of course!


Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/Nibgames



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Feb 5th at 10:32pm 2012

Off topic:
I've never understood the reasoning behind randomizing music playlists.
If its a cd with a few tracks, then in a very short time, its gonna be repeating the songs no matter what. If its a cd with MP3's and shitloads of songs, then the list is so great that after just a few songs it will seem random anyway.

If you can memorize the sequence of songs, you need a larger repertoire methinks.

/rambling



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Niborius on Mon Feb 6th at 4:15pm 2012

Why would you ramble about something so small like that?

I don't want my playlist to play in the same order every time again. I rather have the next song be a surprise, or in case of a big playlist, it is like "Oh right I still have this awesome song"

I'm a little crazy to even respond to that haha but in any case I like to randomize my songs.

smiley




Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/Nibgames



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Feb 6th at 4:34pm 2012

Nothing wrong with liking it. I just never got it.
The amount of songs available is nearly infinite. The amount of blank disc's is also nearly infinite.

I never tried to see just how many songs can be put on a cd.. So I dunno really if its a lot but it seems like it should be enough to make it seem random if you don't eject it for a while.

Hell, for that matter, I have seen randomization on an MP3 player. Some of those puppies have GIG's of room, not just 700 megs.
WTF would you need to randomize Gigs of songs?
Unless you had a photographic memory, there isn't any way possible to remember 1,000's of songs in order. smiley



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Two Questions About Random # Generators
Posted by Crono on Mon Feb 6th at 7:28pm 2012

It's because the playlist in your music player isn't randomized at all. It's in some order, like by Artist or Album. Most people don't want to sequentially listen to every song they own, you want them to be mixed up.

Niborius:

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RANDOM.ORG is a true random number service that generates randomness via atmospheric noise.


As in it measures various EM frequencies, which can be all over the place. But even that isn't REALLY random (it's just the range of values is so massive it will appear that way)


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.




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