Obveously this was not my intent. "say what you have said" I supose would have been more clear, but would have been somewhat redundant.

i thought this topic was about whether homosexuals can marry or not, not whether they can adopt.
But orph, i totally agree with you, if a homosexual couple put pressure on the child or influence them into becoming a homosexual then they should be charged

1st off let me stress, i am 56k at the moment, and connected at 26.4 so this thread has grown way to much for me to look at right now..

but i would like to comment and clarify a few points if i can with this stupid dial-up my dad has at his house

Monkee, although i applaud you, and respect you just as much as before, your confession was un-necessary, and i hope that my admittedly archaic outlook on homosexuality was in no way responcible for this. the very fact that you are humble about my viewpoint only makes me feel all the more like a heel, i KNOW i should avoid these topics, and most of you KNOW i won't, makes me wonder if you do them just to make me look stupid... bottomline, i would hope that we remain as good a friend as we were last week.. (admittedly, that level might not have been as much as i once considered, since you knew my stand, but i didn't know yours)

T.B. The very fact that you disagree, but defended me so hard, makes it even more impressive than had you agree'd.. it is so refreshing to have someone do so with such gusto.. it does happen, many have defended my honor while i am on the road, but very few unto death as you have.. my deepest and humblest thanx.

Jeff lets say for sake of arguement that i am utterly mistaken, homosexuality is not a taught process, how about YOU post your opinion on how, be it one theory or multiple ones i don't care, but i think its your turn to sound stupid for a while, lets see if you can manipulate text any better than i at making comments and opinions clear.

Jinxy for the last time, you do NOT have to understand my opinions for them to be viable.. no more so than i need understand why you dress funny, why you repeatedly FAIL to grasp this idea, or why relativity is even a theory, Einstien is dead, its no longer important.. and most especially, i do not need to understand why you favor homosexuality at all.. its not important i understand, i believe you, i trust you, and thats all that matters.

I am sure that there are other individuals i should mention, but this damned 56k sux.. so it will have to wait till i get home.

lastly let me attempt to elaberate a bit if possible..

monkee i would like to point out that i did not decide one day to be straight, it was a long process, and might or might not have also been a taught process, but the point is i didnt wake up one day and decide "i think i will be normal"

the taught process some of you still seem to not acknowledge.... teaching someone to be gay in not a crash course sort of deal, i doubt anyone truly believes when i said i feel it is a taught thing that i mean they bought a book on it yesterday, found it appealing and tryed it out for size , also i truly doubt anyone really thinks i meant a conspiracy either, that was just plain hateful to even bring up.. teaching is subtle.. its happening right now, right HERE at the snarkpit, we could very well have a few undecided gays, or potential ones, who might be swayed by this very debate, its doubtful, but well withing probability.. also suble could mean consent.. if you are normal but have no issues with gays, then you are in reality perpetuating the problem but making it seem like much less of a deal than it really is, YOU ARE teaching it, whether you believe it or not. young minds are impressionable, my biggest fear is i might unknowingly acquire my own "groupy" bunch.. i would not curse anyone with what i have to endure.. snarkpit is not the only close minded people whom claim to be open-minded.. you think being gay is a minority, try being part of my group, its much smaller, damned few have the tenacity it takes to be like me.. whether you feel thats good or bad is not important, you must give credit to where its due.. being consistantly told you are wrong, is no picnic.

anyways, i think its someone elses turn, if i am wrong, so be it, but no one has done anything yet except SAY i am, no one has proven it yet.

them? who's them SC..

i have not said anyone was wrong, in fact most have only said i was.

if you are refering to gays, benefit of what doubt?

i already mentioned at least once, that if science proves me wrong, and homosexuality is a genetic condition, i would endevour to mend my ways... but i would retain the hope of a cure. is that so horrible?

i cannot bend any more, at least not as swiftly as some of you feel i must in order to "FIT IN" around here.

homosexuality is wrong, that is not in question, what is is its cause, be it environmental, or genetics.

i am sorry, but thats about all i can concede to, but i stress again, NO ONE has proven me wrong, only SAID i was, and thats even more foolish than i blindly following my own faith.

I'm simply saying it's ridiculous to hate a group of people because of how you believe they got that way. We can't determine exactly why gay people are gay, so why do you assume the worst? It just seems so arbitrary.

As for everyone's hostility, it would be like you trying to comprehend the position of a racist. I realize to you there's a difference between being against gays and being against blacks (for example), but the positions appear the same to those of us on the other side of the argument. Disowning a child because they love someone of the same sex seems as disturbing to me as disowning a child because they love someone of a different race.

Orph, it's that medium of text again.. I mislaid my words, and they can be construed badly.. I didnt mean that in a way to say for example "orph is a stubborn bigot" - I am just highlighting to Tracer_Bullet that it's happening. I phrased 'enlighten' within the speech marks in an off the cuff way to highlight some peoples determination to engage in you "trench warfare" on the forums over the issue.

There is no deep meaning to it, I dont go for low swipes like that - I disagree with your opinion and find it quite un-understandable (is that even a word?!), but I still respect that you have, and are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

I never go for "flaming" as it were, unless it is a topic that really gets me going It's just a comment misconstrued, didn't mean any harm or malice to you at all bud

I hope you can understand and can see fit to pass it off as an error of judgement on my part to even put that phrase down in the first place

monkee- i know you couldnt have kept up with umpteen pages so i fully realize where the confusion might have occured..

someplace way back we talked about a line being drawn, mine is substantially later it seems than yours occures in the "creation" or "evolution" of being gay.

IMO gay occures at the point of first intercourse with the same gender, up to that point you are not yet gay. my reason? because you cannot be punished for a thought, and you, monkee (and i really do not want to know your active sex life PLEASE) are still only thinking with all the words you have posted about your condidtion.

in your opinion (from your words) gay begins at the moment of conception, the conception of the thought, "i love him" or " i am attracted to him"

my way has a salvation and a choice, your way condems a lot of innocent people to a life of evil, they have not yet committed, i am not trying to say which version is the real one, just that my way leaves more time, or room to hope for another outcome besides "i am gay, cause i feel for a man"

i hope that made some sort of sense, cause i really cannot express it much better in text.

gwil, i appologize, for falling victim to the same text bug as everyone else.. i should have known better, but this whole thread went from open (OPEN) disccusion to attack orph again, its made me edgy.

jinx- you claim i left nothing open for discussion, but i stressed repeatedly that if science proves me wrong that i would repent, why must the burden of proof lie totally with me? cause my preceptions of gay are more distructive than most? why is that? i have not hurt anyone either

monkee, gays have not harmed me, and i have harmed no gays, just because few gays know of me, but i know of many gays, that makes them innocent, and me guilty?

lack of harming, SHOULD work both ways, but because gay is supposed to be harmless, but my harsh views are considered OTT, mine are wrong.. that seems very unfair, and really a one sided opinion of exactly what harmless is..

i use my opinions of gays, to deture my future family from making the biggest mistake of their lives, the fact that gays do not consider it a mistake is secondary here, the fact remains, i must use every tool at my disposal to ensure my children and childrens children grow up the best they can be.. if i fail, its my fault no theirs i suppose, but its definately a burden i will carry for the rest of my days.

this topic should never have switch from gays rights to orphs, but many seem insistant on making it so every damed time we discuss a *taboo* subject.

just because my opinions appear erroneous, by no means, means they are up for debating..

consider this monkee, i am not ashamed of anything i type, nor anything i have expressed, albiet poorly sometime, so neither should you.. pick your own time with this, do not allow the snarkpit to ruin your future.. if your parents are as close minded as i am, do not ruin what you KNOW you have, in the hopes of what you feel you must have.

that may not be the best advice, but its all i can give.. if i had a secret, one as life impacting as yours, i would not be in any rush to find out how it will be accepted, its not as if you have cancer and will die in 6 months, there is no need to hurry, for fear you have little time.

jeff, for someone who claims smart, you sure are dumb at times..

you are disagreeing with me cause of how i say gays come into being, or are you anylonger? i am not sure, but the point is, i didn't ask you if you think they are here, i asked you how they got that way ... i wanna hear your opinion on this. your whole premise for discussing this topic stemmed from my reasons.. although i have said repeatedly, that i hate them cause of the process OF their creation, which is the teaching.i consider gay to be evil, and spreading it also to be evil, so teaching people to be gay is evil, its fairly simply.. i wanna hear, or read actually, if you have any ideas, and just how forking articulate YOU can be using text, cause quite frankly, you failed miserably, just disagreeing with me using text, i cannot see how you will do any better using text to pose any ideas of your own

look jeff, and everyone for that matter, its gotten old, if you have a theory to the contrary of mine, either post it, or shut up about it, cause i am tired of banging my head, against the wall so to speak.

if my opinion is soooo hard to comprehend, then you are NOT, by any definition ... open-minded.

jeff, either answer my question, or be quiet (to paraphrase your question toward me)