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 Re: Logic
Posted by matt on Wed Apr 21st at 10:28am 2004

? posted by Leperous
? posted by matt
? posted by $loth
Lep, stupid kids???? I'm starting college in september, and as my mum is a single parent, we ned the money.Didn't think about that did ya?

Same situation, 'cept I'm already in college. I think its all very well for Lep and others already in University to say this sort of thing.

Uni students have to pay ?1000 tuition fees every year- which works out to about ?30-?40/week. We also have seperate accomodation charges on top of that. If they increase tuition fees to ?3000, that's going to be ?100+ a week. So I think it's all very well for me to say this sort of thing- it's absurd that you get paid ?30/week to just turn up for at least 10 hours a week to a free education. I'm sure you appreciate the extra money, but you could still go to college without it, right?

note: my situation is quite good money-wise, despite my mum also being a single parent, but I am bitching for the average (majority) student!

I'm with ya, I don't get this ?30 a week thingumey anyway yet. Anyway, if your in University, shouldn't you be in a lecture right now?

[edit]You must be quite well of as a student anyway if you can aford a LAMP server for the snarkpit.[/edit]

[addsig]



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Leperous on Wed Apr 21st at 10:48am 2004

No, I shouldn't be in a lecture- Oxford has shorter terms and I'm not meant to be back until next week; as a maths student I have about 6 hours of lectures a week anyway; and I have finals this term so no lectures

And I just do this site through a web hosting company pretty cheaply, so, er, if a LAMP server is good then go pet them instead





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 Re: Logic
Posted by Gwil on Wed Apr 21st at 10:52am 2004

Another point is that this is just the old problem solving exercise of Mr Blair and Mr Clarke - identify problem, throw money at it. The ?30 will only be going to small income households as it happens, and due to the lack of youth awareness about schemes such as these, it probably wont cost very much at all.

The way to solve dropout rates is to develop from the bottom of the system and then work upwards. There's no point in pasting over the cracks when the foundations of the system are essentially weak. Perhaps if the Government introduced more Vocational based courses into secondary education and improved standards at indepedent sixth form colleges, then they would have some real results to look at.

What we have now thanks to our confused PSE messages from secondary schools is a generation who are more or less having their destiny dictated to them - "learn, learn, learn, debt, die". When it comes round to being 16/17/18 years old, the last thing many school leavers want is to go straight back into education, especially when they didnt particuarly enjoy it in the first place. But if its presented as pretty much the only option, im afraid this recipe for apathy, disaffection and debts is just going to keep on producing more bad than good.





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 Re: Logic
Posted by scary_jeff on Wed Apr 21st at 10:57am 2004

Nobody said that it's not right to give money to people in 6th form, they said that it doesn't make sense to give money to 6th form students, and take it away from university students. If you are having money problems and need the EMA to help you go through 6th form, then that's great if you can get the extra money. But you must see that it doesn't make any sense to take away this support when the student finishes 6th form, and goes to a university, where their money problems are worse.

? quote:
shouldn't you be in a lecture right now


Ha, good point. Thing is, for most university courses, you are paying for less tuition time than you get for free at 6th form. People pay ?1000 a year for 3 hours of lectures a week in some cases.

Orph - there isn't a problem for kids from poor backgrounds to go to university here. In the short term, they get everything paid for. Most of it has to be paid back, but only when they are in a job earning over a certain amount. The problem is for kids from families who are just over what the governemt has decided is 'poor'. There isn't much of a gap between having things paid for you, and having to pay it all yourself, so if your family only just gets into the catagory where they can supposedly afford to pay for their kid, that's where things are the hardest.

The crazy thing to me is that the stduent loan they give you, is based on how much parents earn. I just don't understand this at all - the loan has to be paid back, and having rich parents doesn't mean they give their kid tons of money all the time. Where's the sense in giving richer students less student loan, given that the student has to pay it back anyway!?



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Apr 21st at 11:01am 2004

the problem as i see it, you don't know at 15-17 what you are missing, till you are in your 30's-40's

i am not so old, that i don't remember those famous last words every teen says.. "I can't wait to grow up and get a job"

i would do almost anything, to have the option of going back to school, i know most of you don't wanna hear that, but its true enuff to be scary, as much as you might find school to be a bitch, real life is exponentially more so.. stay in school, do something with the opportunity it allows, cause once you slide into the rut that real life is, you usually cannot get back out.

i don't hate my life, my kids, and grand kids are so much a part of it, that it dilutes the worse parts some, but i still wish i could go back..

my advice, stop bitching about school, cause real life is about to smack you silly.. adulthood is right around the corner for most of you.

i am not saying, everyone here bitches, but there are enuff whom do.

/ 2 cents

[addsig]



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Gwil on Wed Apr 21st at 11:30am 2004

Nobodys debating the value of education for all Orph, and I definately agree on the "dont moan about school" thing.. it's just the situation has gone too far in a different direction - electrical/plumbing/joinery workers for the proposed new terminal were expected to be earning up to ?55k a year, just for (essentially simple, but practical) having a handful of skills.

meanwhile yet another communications/media/it implementation/floristry graduate emerges back into the world, having no real idea of the workplace (presuming they started uni at 18, they will have been in education for 15+ years.. what happened to living?).

not only that but we're crippling people with huge debts from these essentially useless university courses, which doesnt really help other social problems - like the lack of affordable properties for first time buyers on the housing market - how many are being slowed by this fiscal millstone slung around their neck?

the whole thing smacks of irony to me, and a government acting like a dog chasing its own tail - we the public are criticised for getting ourselves into debts/arrears/ccjs from credit cards, right after we are telling people that the only way forward in life is to go study at college and university.. and get yourself in debt!





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 Re: Logic
Posted by scary_jeff on Wed Apr 21st at 11:51am 2004

Just watched PMQs, turns out the UK has the highest percentage of students leaving school at the first opertunity, so the EMA seems like a good idea. I suppose we aren't arguing very well - we say too many people go to university, and that the government should give more money to students, but surely the government not giving so much money to students acheives our goal of making less people want to go?

Is there a version of PMQs (prime ministers questions) in america? The politicians ask Mr Blair a bunch of questions (I think most of them have been asked in advance, so the prime minister gets a chance to prepare answers), and there's all sorts of comedy banter. I say the questions are given in advance, but the Mr Blair isn't reading a script or anything - it's a pretty dynamic thing, and I think it's quite good.



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Apr 21st at 11:58am 2004

i read/see bits and pieces in each post, that rings of true.. not that they are wrong there, but the issue is hardly universal.

the point is, i don't know what the point is, but its not because i don't care to know, its more of an issue of not being familiar with issues abroad.

now it sounds like prattle on my part, which is not my intention at all.

bottom line i guess, schooling is the single most important thing i can think of at this moment, that each and every one of us must have in common. no matter whom you are, or what country to reside in, its a commonality we share.

i think Jeff nailed it best when he mentioned the line between to poor, and poor.. it is a line that seems to inflexible.. say the line is 25,000 bucks a year, but you make 26,000 and have 6 children to feed... that might be different than making 24,000 and one child.. anyways, i don't have a solution, all i can stress is, stay in school.

[addsig]



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Gwil on Wed Apr 21st at 5:45pm 2004

? posted by scary_jeff
Just watched PMQs, turns out the UK has the highest percentage of students leaving school at the first opertunity, so the EMA seems like a good idea. I suppose we aren't arguing very well - we say too many people go to university, and that the government should give more money to students, but surely the government not giving so much money to students acheives our goal of making less people want to go?

Is there a version of PMQs (prime ministers questions) in america? The politicians ask Mr Blair a bunch of questions (I think most of them have been asked in advance, so the prime minister gets a chance to prepare answers), and there's all sorts of comedy banter. I say the questions are given in advance, but the Mr Blair isn't reading a script or anything - it's a pretty dynamic thing, and I think it's quite good.

PMQ's are a farce - nothing is ever resolved as a result of them taking place, it's just an excuse to do what the Houses of Parliament do best - laugh and joke at each other but never seem to get down to serious business...

also I believe he has an inkling on who will come up (you can apply to ask a questions, set amounts etc.. - then the speaker runs the show) and the type of questions... its more a place for smaller MP specific issues to be raised than being useful for anything else IMO.





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 Re: Logic
Posted by scary_jeff on Wed Apr 21st at 5:53pm 2004

I agree nothing gets resolved, but it's good at showing how Mr Blair can think on his feet so to speak. Also, it's only the big issues that only get talked around, the smaller issues from MPs nobody has heard of before normally get a straight answer.



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Crono on Wed Apr 21st at 5:54pm 2004

The other thing is, when giving money to students in a public government ran facility (high school and such), the government (which ever government it may be) will get a percentage back directly though the schools.

College students tend to know the value of money better then HS students (no offense guys). You really know what something is worth when you don't have a lot of it and NEED more.

If the governmnet started giving money to college students they wouldn't get a dime of it back. Granted they will get taxes and such, but from general spending, they don't have a direct revenue coming from colleges.

The one thing the government does here is: they will hire you even if you have no experience, as long as you have a degree (and skills of course). Since they kind of need to support the school system. They're pretty much the only affiliation that will do that. And their jobs aren't exactly low wage (most start at 40k a year (US))

However, I know here once you get to your last year in college, before you get your degree, especially in computer science, companies come scouting. and if you're a good enough student you can negotiate enourmus prices (since companies will be fighting over you) ... however, our econemy is rather low at the moment.

I imagine life does get harder as you go on, however, isn't that the reason why you want a higher education? So that it isn't has hard as it would be if you had, say, no education?
Anyway, to be honest, college is what matters ... Lower schools really don't teach you much of anything, besides maybe english (language) skills, and math. They'd also give you a sense of what you want to take later on. But, honestly, I don't remember much of anything that was worthwild in my High School courses, it was mostly the same "general" bulls**t. [addsig]



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 Re: Logic
Posted by Cash Car Star on Wed Apr 21st at 5:59pm 2004

I skipped reading the second page cause I got a class to get to, but I read the first one and am here with a comment on what happens financially in the US university system. In order to get a free ride, the traditional, media-friendly way is to be a super-duper sports player and then the school will give you a free ride to play sports at their school. There's of course minimum grade requirements and stuff like that. Depending on the institution, financial aid could possibly foot the bill, although it's usually given out to the amount that you can just afford the education.

The only way to get a free ride from the government and get paid an allowance as well is to go ROTC. You study for your four years somewhere, and then afterwards they put you in the Army/Navy/Air Force where you're stationed for a while. I think it's two years active duty and two years on call, but seeing as I'm not ROTC I really don't know. While students they have all sorts of ROTC-type duties. Many people find this to be a good solution to financing college, and I can easily see why. I reap the benefits because it means I don't have to worry about ever being drafted.






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