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US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 12:09pm 2004

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672901.stm

Shocking, disgusting.. etc... One thing is for certain, this isn't going to do the US admin or the US armys public image any favours at all, when the troops are seen to be out of control and torturing Iraqis, just as Saddam did before

The question is how do these get overlooked? And how much can you blame it on unprofessional recruits being attracted by the misleading messages of Bush - ie, Iraq was in league with Al Qaeda - could have possibly attracted those with less self control and intelligence to fight and "exact their revenge" upon "terrorists".

Either way this is just another calamity thats going to inflame the situation between Arab nations and the West. Laced with the typical irony, hypocracy and general illegalness that dogs the Bush administration, hopefully it will spur other countries on to speak out against the USA without fear of repercussion..

Any thoughts on this new "development"?

[ed- this is not an attack on american citizens. it is aimed at the army, the government and the soldiers who carried out these deeds. please note also im not saying UK soldiers are squeeky clean or anything either, im commenting on this particular story. thank you ]

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Leperous on Fri Apr 30th at 12:22pm 2004

I'm not sure, I have mixed feelings about this. I guess you can understand *why* they were doing it- these soliders will have had colleagues killed and much worse (remember the "bridge" incident? I didn't see any mass, widespread condemnation for that), they probably arrested these guys for trying to/succeeding in killing more soliders for all we know... But it's still barbaric and wrong, and I hope these people are locked up for a long time if this is true. However, I think any condemnation of the US military/government for this is just stupid and shortsighted. The whole situation is going to pot, and although it's the US's fault initially, the international community (especially the Arab world) has a responsibility to do more to help Iraqis in general, which they're not doing...

And on the one hand, I'm glad there is widespread condemnation and disgust about this, when to be fair there has been far worse committed by Iraqis (and shown on Arabic TV)

*goes back to being kerfuddled about maths, slides further into Atheism*





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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Fri Apr 30th at 12:29pm 2004

Out of thousands of soldiers in the middle east, less than 20 get to 'speak' for all of them. This is a horrible thing to have happening, but this isn't the first time US troops (or troops from any other nation) have acted with inhuman actions in crossing the line on what is acceptable conduct with prisoners - which, again, this isn't.

Currently there are 6 people being indicted, according to the article. I agree that this is horrible to have happened, but it does not in any way represent US or military policy in the region. [addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 12:32pm 2004

Obviously emotions will run high in war, and I expect there are plenty more incidents of this, amongst the UK ranks as well. The command could have done more to secure people against these abuses, and I'd wager a lot of the hate is based on a basic misunderstanding of the Iraqis they were fighting.

Also you have to take into account that Arab governments are reluctant to cooperate with the US, as they fear insurgents and similar attacking them.. insurgents fuelled by religious hatred and US foreign policy. I agree though that more could be done by other countries to levy the situation, particuarly people like France (who need to repair themselves after the UN Oil For Food scandal) and Russia also....

The problem is both of the sides are so extremely polarised to each other, we are just seeing a rehash of the US/USSR neo-colonization style movements in the Middle East... why don't people learn from history!?

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 12:36pm 2004

7 actually KFS (:P), and like I said - I accept and understand these things can and will happen with all nations, but this is going to do little to remedy a situation when the US army/admin are portraying themselves as the bringers of freedom from torture and human rights abuses...

With situations like this, it pays to have extra checks and policing over the soldiers. Also I hardly say the US military is almost blameless for wrongdoing in Iraq, Fallujah and Najaf spring to mind - bombing of Mosques and all that ^_^

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Leperous on Fri Apr 30th at 1:10pm 2004

Although we know about how good they are at aiming bombs (c.f. Chinese embassies), I doubt they'd attack Mosques if militants weren't obviously hiding inside, given the sensitivity...





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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by angel of death on Fri Apr 30th at 1:25pm 2004

Folks I was once an american solider and I seen some nasty action in my time. While I do not agree with this I still support my country and its soliders. I have more than a few close friends right there close to where the bridge incident happened. I was worried until I found out it was not them. Combat does strange things to you that most people would never be able to imagine. You see and do things you will regret for the rest of your life. As for this occurence the responsible parties should be punished. Does anyone rember 9/11 the wtc bombing.



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 2:24pm 2004

? posted by Leperous

Although we know about how good they are at aiming bombs (c.f. Chinese embassies), I doubt they'd attack Mosques if militants weren't obviously hiding inside, given the sensitivity...

That's just it though - i'm the first to admit that the first casualty of war is definately the truth, but by all accounts they use excessive force far too much - the mosque incident was 1, maybe a couple of militants - so they unload with 2x 500lb bombs and laser guided missiles?

All i'm saying is that the US/UK administration and the US army should think about the repercussions of their approach toward policing the country, and particuarly their own forces.

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Kage_Prototype on Fri Apr 30th at 2:32pm 2004

Well, can't blame them for getting bored.

/me gets lynched [addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Thylacine on Fri Apr 30th at 2:46pm 2004

? quote:
One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

Umm, call it a hunch, but I haven't read the Geneva Convention either, but I am sure genital electrocution is against it. Call it a hunch.





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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 2:57pm 2004

I didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention so I didn't know it was wrong to torture people and put them through agony.

great excuse! kinda like saying.. I didnt read your countrys laws so I didnt know it was wrong for me to take someone else's car...

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Fri Apr 30th at 3:12pm 2004

I don't see what the big deal is. Bad things happen in war/occupation, and I'm certain the US Army has its problems like everyone else. It would be foolish to think otherwise. Still, 7 people being accused of torture is huge news? What next, are we going to have front page articles whenever a stray bullet hits a civilian? This would be more disturbing if it was proven to be widespread or 'officially' sanctioned.





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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 3:17pm 2004

The point is they (the US army) have already screamed bloody murder themselves over the treatment of prisoners by the Iraqis, yet they don't have the foresight to plan any kind of system to limit battlefield abuses and "safe" incarceration for their prisoners (who they should have known they were going to catch).

For a fairly dubious war in terms of legal grounding, you would have thought that the US army/admin teams for Iraq would have made sure everything ran smoothly after the takeover. And yes, I accept you can't account for what will happen in a war, but their whole policy on rebuilding Iraq is deeply flawed (I can name other examples if people want to accuse me of being a raging lefty with an agenda against the US ) with a horrible bias for western businesses

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Fri Apr 30th at 3:48pm 2004

I don't think the US administration did much planning at all for an occupation. They expected that most of the Iraqi army would switch sides and that there would be countrywide revolts against Hussein once the invasion started. They expected a quick victory like in Afghanistan where the people joined the US in the war and fully supported their actions. The real focus on rebuilding and democratizating Iraq didn't happen until the WMD search proved fruitless and the US was stuck with control of the country.



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Gwil on Fri Apr 30th at 4:00pm 2004

contingency plans...

oh well, not a lot we can do about it now - apart from learn a few lessons and try and get the situation remedied asap, I guess.

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Andrei on Fri Apr 30th at 5:35pm 2004

This makes me sick! [addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Kain on Sat May 1st at 12:21am 2004

yep; too bad Klaus was not a prisoner...



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Leperous on Sun May 2nd at 10:12am 2004

Interesting followup to the UK version:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3677311.stm



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by Orpheus on Sun May 2nd at 10:42am 2004

i don't have time to read all this crap, but i would like to point out, i have at least one UK friend, who actually fought over there, and he mentions his being appalled at HIS COUNTRIES abuses of the locals..

this is by no means a USA only incident.. he states he is very shocked to see his own countrymen abusing the locals..

anywho's, i thought it noteworthy to point out, the atrocities are not country generalized..

i think, that if you cannot dig deeply enough to find any british/UK atrocities (which obviously exist as well), that you should not post any american ones..

/my 2 cents

[addsig]



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 Re: US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq
Posted by KoRnFlakes on Sun May 2nd at 10:59am 2004

its all rubbish tbh, hes not beaten its all been faked. why would pictures have been taken if it were real ffs? + orph, all this has been on the tv, its hardly being dug up. [addsig]




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