Feedback on an important document
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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:31am 2004


I need to give emergency first-aid guidelines to my university cave club for our upcoming expedition. The current guidelines are outdated and inappropriate to our circumstances. We have access to helicopter emergency assistance, but if an incident occurs underground it will be many hours (say, eight hours) before that help could arrive.

This is a first draft of the document. Any feedback welcome, especially from people with a medical background.

http://www.snarkpit.com/pits/gollum/bls_guidelines.zip

*To add: signs of profound hypothermia





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:37am 2004


your link is dead.. make it a true link mike.. even copy/paste fails [addsig]



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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Cassius on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:38am 2004


Worked for me, Orph.

Capitalize the title and bold more words. That's as far as I can suggest.





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:38am 2004


Link should be fixed now.





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:40am 2004


snarkpit, thru trial and error from both lep and i have determined, that the pit hates caps..

make all files in lower case, to assure functional links.

/ 2 cents

[addsig]




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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:44am 2004


? posted by Orpheus

snarkpit, thru trial and error from both lep and i have determined, that the pit hates caps..

make all files in lower case, to assure functional links.

/ 2 cents

*Tick*

If it doesn't work now, it's definitely a problem at your end





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:44am 2004


Nothing to add except I laughed at the bit where it advises against administering CPR to a decapitated head.



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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:45am 2004


maybe i misunderstand, but this is a document for after someone needs help..

why not have one to avoid getting into trouble to begin with?

perhaps, you already covered this while i was on the road mike?

did i miss something?

[addsig]




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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:47am 2004


? posted by Gollum

*Tick*

If it doesn't work now, it's definitely a problem at your end

oh, i went into your pit directly and retrieved it mike.. no hassles.. i was just attempting to forestall any future issues.

i have had cap issues with critiques in the past.. lep and i determined it is best to only use lower case files..

[addsig]




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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:48am 2004


? posted by Orpheus

maybe i misunderstand, but this is a document for after someone needs help..

why not have one to avoid getting into trouble to begin with?

perhaps, you already covered this while i was on the road mike?

did i miss something?

The guidelines to avoid getting into trouble are really more about safe caving and risk assessment than medical matters. As one of the least experienced cavers on expedition, it's not my place to educate people about caving (rather, I'm there to be educated!). As medical officer for the expedition, it is my responsibility to give advice about first-aid etc.

? quote:
Nothing to add except I laughed at the bit where it advises against administering CPR to a decapitated head.

Well, you have to include it. Besides, a bit of macabre humour is essential for these grim speculations





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:54am 2004


i know basic first aid only, nothing major i am afraid.

i am more inclined to educate on avoiding injuries.. good luck with your position mike.. its an important one to be sure.

spelunking can be very exciting, but the novice... i hate them. i have no fun when i cave with complete n00b's, the caves i visit, tend to be reject of people who know better than to be in them

have fun.

[addsig]




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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Wed Jun 2nd at 2:11am 2004


Caves with campers and awp fagz suck. Spelunking heh, sounds almost as dirty as hornswoggle.



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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Jun 2nd at 5:15am 2004


Nicely done. it is straight forward and concise. you may want to say something about how to recognize hypothermia, but that may be beyond the scope of this document.





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by wil5on on Wed Jun 2nd at 9:03am 2004


Make sure you watch out for rolling boulders, they can be a real hazard [addsig]



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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 10:00am 2004


? posted by Tracer Bullet

Nicely done. it is straight forward and concise. you may want to say something about how to recognize hypothermia, but that may be beyond the scope of this document.

Yes, I do need to mention that. People can probably recognise hypothermia, but they won't know the differences between hypothermia and profound hypothermia.

? posted by wil5on
Make sure you watch out for rolling boulders, they can be a real hazard

Yes, it would be ironic wouldn't it Some club members have had close calls with rolling, or at least falling, boulders. We have something called the "Lemming" award for these people.





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gwil on Wed Jun 2nd at 10:53am 2004


Over wordy Gollum, you say too much when what you are trying to achieve is getting people to understand the fundamental ideas in the document..

numerous examples, far too many to mention

eg;

"Instead, I will address these two emotive questions" - could be I will answer the two most important questions.

This isn't Shakespeare, and without wanting to sound rude, I am aware you have an extremely wide vocabulary. This isn't the kind of document you need to exercise it on People tend to zone out and ignore the most important things in text if you waffle or overword - just go and remove some of the less needed modifiers..

"ventricular fibrillation" - this isn't ER. simplify for safety, not everyone will have their medical dictionary to hand or will understand this.

the use of the word him, is a little odd - perhaps it is better to call the person, the casualty.

the use of the word ventilation - "mouth to mouth" would be preferable. no doubt if (god forbid) a situation should arise where your guidelines have to be remembered/used, they need to be simple, practical yet accurate... not the entire medical lexical set

like Cass said as well - use of bold, and bullet points to highlight the most important points to remember. it reads far too much like a handbook than a set of guidelines.

No offence, but as it stands it is far from straight forward - no doubt some people can understand the language and terminology used, but you cannot guarantee everyone will click with your style of writing and excessive over modification of words.

When making a document like this, you have to think about the target audience, the information (and more importantly which bits are "vital" knowledge). Sorry if it sounds like i'm being an anally retentive bitch, I just have done this lots before - reading, criticising and reshaping documents for maximum effect

[addsig]




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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Leperous on Wed Jun 2nd at 10:56am 2004


? posted by Gwil

the use of the word him, is a little odd - perhaps it is better to call the person, the casualty.

Gwil, are you in the WI or something?! "Him" is a generic, neutral gender title so it's perfectly acceptable, unless this has to be politcally correct





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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gwil on Wed Jun 2nd at 11:04am 2004


mong, i clicked edit instead of reply... still havent woken up fully

lep: political correctness I hate, just because i'm on the left it hardly means I advocate pandering to the whims of liberals and whingers. you couldn't be further off the mark in fact

the document is comprehensive, but far from clear and concise (or as clear/concise, as it could be). as an english language student (a particuarly good one, without wanting to blow my trumpet) I picked documents apart on so many topics, and rephrased and rewrote them for maximum impact on an almost daily basis.

i am casting my critical english eye over this, so it is effective - after all, it is quite an important document

as for the use of the word "him", i'm not saying women cavers will feel victimised or anything, I couldn't care less what they call each other. I just think the term "the casualty" keeps the subject of the sentence, and the entire document uniform - thus leading to better comprehension of the points and instructions Gollum needs to convey

[addsig]



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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by angel of death on Wed Jun 2nd at 11:10am 2004


I have only one thing to add. Remind everyone that the best place to check for circulation is the throat right next to the adams apple. Chest compressions on a still beating heart may do more damage than good.




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Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gwil on Wed Jun 2nd at 11:14am 2004


TBH if it was me writing the document, or I had a free hand to whip the editing axe on it, a layout overhaul is needed as well. these things may seem like a passing though - perhaps sections/questions to head up the different areas.

like Background, Assessing the casualty (you see Lep, thats why its important ), When to use CPR, etc - this will help people learn and comprehend MASSIVELY. Never undervalue structure and layout in maximising the effectiveness of a document.

[addsig]





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