Feedback on an important document
Post Reply
Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 11:50am 2004


? posted by angel of death
I have only one thing to add. Remind everyone that the best place to check for circulation is the throat right next to the adams apple. Chest compressions on a still beating heart may do more damage than good.

Not true. Lay rescuers (as opposed to healthcare professionals) are now advised not to check for a pulse. This is because they will take far too long and will be unreliable. Chest compressions to a still-beating heart are unlikely to cause serious harm, but failing to give them to a stopped heart is certain death.

But thanks for giving your input, I appreciate it

Gwil - thanks for the detailed feedback I agree that the document is not worded effectively for a basic first-aid guide. But that isn't its purpose.

? quote:
No offence, but as it stands it is far from straight forward - no doubt some people can understand the language and terminology used, but you cannot guarantee everyone will click with your style of writing and excessive over modification of words.

When making a document like this, you have to think about the target audience, the information (and more importantly which bits are "vital" knowledge).

Exactly. The target audience are all very intelligent people with wide vocabularies and good knowledge of basic first-aid principles. Their training has also included elements of advanced first-aid. I am not going to repeat everything that they already know - that will bloat the document and make it less likely to be studied.

I'm aware of the increasing emphasis on simplicity and clarity in instructional docmentation. I'm also aware of the elements of English courses that teach this. I think on the whole it is a very good idea, but it can become too single-minded. I've recently had to read a lot of this sort of stuff (for my sports coaching qualification) and to be honest I find it very tiresome and hard to digest. Apt use of "sophisticated" vocabulary is a better way to communicate, provided that your audience understands the vocabulary. I recognise it's necessary and desirable to "dumb down" when instructing a very broad audience, however.

The purpose of this document is not to teach people first-aid. They already know that. It's intended to fill a gap in their knowledge - an area where they are unsure. There's no point in me rehashing D.R.A.B.C. etc.

? quote:
TBH if it was me writing the document, or I had a free hand to whip the editing axe on it, a layout overhaul is needed as well. these things may seem like a passing though - perhaps sections/questions to head up the different areas.

Now there I think you may be right. I want to retain all the information in the document, but I think I should start the document with clear guidelines before offering the detailed medical explanation. That way, those who like to follow rules will happily read the guidelines and understand them; those who like to question rules will read the justifications and accept them.





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 12:14pm 2004


? posted by Gollum

Exactly. The target audience are all very intelligent people

i don't wanna quote this completely out of context, cause it may have no baring at all on this one occation..

highly intelligent, or educated people can and often are the most stupid people i have ever encountered.. no offense to anyone in particular here, but when it comes to real smarts, book smarts hold no comparison

my education extends only slightly past 12th grade, as far as schooling goes, but i have had the displeasure of training several of my supposed bosses... bosses who's only qualification was a college degree.. usually in a subject that has nothing to do with the job at all

bottomline.. assume they are stupid, not educated, and write the document accordingly, cause really smart people, are dumb as door knobs..

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:24pm 2004


Maybe I should have said that these people are smart and experienced. I'm working with very good "raw material" here.

However, I will revise the document structure to improve clarity





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 1:28pm 2004


? posted by Gollum

Maybe I should have said that these people are smart and experienced. I'm working with very good "raw material" here.

However, I will revise the document structure to improve clarity

just as long as you know, i meant no offense.. i don't know your friends, so my opinion cannot be entirely directed at them now can it

my spelunking experience is somewhat limited, but i know my limits.. and thats all incumbent when caving.

good luck mike.

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gwil on Wed Jun 2nd at 2:13pm 2004


I had half-guessed your target would be well educated people, but the points stand for general use, but I can see your point

So yeah, the only thing I guess is just a bit of a layout workaround. Also I did forget to say it seems like all good, usable information.. just spinkifying is needed

Don't forget to show us the revised version

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Leperous on Wed Jun 2nd at 2:42pm 2004


And don't forget, pictures = win



Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 3:11pm 2004


? posted by Gwil

I had half-guessed your target would be well educated people, but the points stand for general use, but I can see your point

So yeah, the only thing I guess is just a bit of a layout workaround. Also I did forget to say it seems like all good, usable information.. just spinkifying is needed

Don't forget to show us the revised version

Will do Despite everything else I've said, I believe the skill of "cutting down" a document to its bare essentials and presenting it with maximum clarity is very important (and it's not nearly as easy as many people might think!). At the moment the document is badly organised.





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by flashman on Wed Jun 2nd at 3:29pm 2004


Good, useable information as Gwil said, though not enough.
What are the signs of profound hypothermia? How can they be distinguished from those of near-drowning?

The document is clear and well written, a nice, easy style. I would hate to think that my life might depend on someone who found it difficult to understand - don't go caving with troglodytes is my advice.

On a different note, I intend to complain, in the strongest terms, to the Basic Life Support and Automated External Defibrillation Working Group about their scandalous use of the word "him" throughout the whole document you cite as a reference.






Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 4:23pm 2004


I've changed the document structure and style, and I'm revising the advice on cold water immersion/profound hypothermia/near drowning. These are the really tricky cases and they need to be crystal clear Will have to stop soon because I need to do some "real" work But I'll update when finished.



Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 7:41pm 2004


Right, here's a new version. It's radically different from the previous one - I've tried to take your comments to heart without destroying the good things about the document. Let me know what you think.





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 8:08pm 2004


1) assuming everyone has word here at the pit, might reduce your feedback, have two versions.. word/wordpad.

2) 20 minutes huh? it actually says that? if i need cpr, i hope you lose your watch.

i love the new layout mike, and must confess i didn't read the whole thing, other than to note all the metric crap i assume all your chums know it?

final; inquiry, all this is basic CPR, are you only doing CPR or is this just #1 of many?

actually, maybe i should read it closer, the thing is not making sense to me...

( i have both, this and the word document open as i type )

i will get back to you.

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 8:23pm 2004


Glad you liked the new layout - it was some effort to get Word to do what I wanted

? quote:
20 minutes huh? it actually says that? if i need cpr, i hope you lose your watch.

If I found you unconscious in a road accident in this country, I would attempt to give you up to four hours of CPR. That's because I would be waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

In a remote cave, it's going to be more than four hours before help arrives. You are as good as dead in that situation if a short period of CPR is not effective. My concern is for the safety of the group as well as the casualty.

Remember that CPR is not nearly as effective as a natural heartbeat. CPR cannot keep someone alive forever.

You've illustrated my ideas very well though - it's precisely this sort of irrational, emotional reaction that is likely to make people give pointless CPR and potentially endanger themselves

? quote:
final; inquiry, all this is basic CPR, are you only doing CPR or is this just #1 of many?

Just this one. Remember, they have received first-aid training; this document is meant to correct a specific gap in the training. I also need to look at the extraction of patients with suspected spinal injuries, but that's not something everyone needs to know about - before we start moving a casualty out from the cave, I will arrive to make an assessment (or my deputy will if I've gone home already).

That said, I should think about integrating this with the general rescue guidelines.....but that's a task for another day





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 8:36pm 2004


my concern was 2 fold.. cpr warms the person doing it as much as helps the victim to survive..

your wording assumes, no one went out for assistance.. if i knew the entrance was 60 minutes at a trot each way, i would be giving cpr for no less than 120 minutes..

secondly if you were one of two members present only, and your safety was paramount, then 20 minutes is a good number.

i admit, i have limited first aid training, but it is much more extensive than you seem to be grasping.. i know all the military first aid .. much more than your average office first aid officer would have. i could in a pinch, deliver a normal birth if i had to.. when i say limited, i am saying i know much less than a nurse/doctor.

anywho's.. conditions would dictate just how long i did the action.. a bit of common sense so to speak..

/me shuts up now

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 8:45pm 2004


? quote:
your wording assumes, no one went out for assistance.. if i knew the entrance was 60 minutes at a trot each way, i would be giving cpr for no less than 120 minutes..

Suppose it's 60 minutes to the entrance. It's then probably another 60 minutes back to base camp or the nearest phone reception area. Helicopter response time is another 60 minutes, and then they have to get down the cave. Another 60 minutes before they reach the casualty.

In total, 4 hours is the response time. The casualty is dead by then.

However, if you were just inside the entrance - say, 10 minutes caving - the time is cut to 2 hours 20 minutes. This *might* just be short enough - that's why I say "Unless you are very near the cave entrance....".

? quote:
admit, i have limited first aid training, but it is much more extensive than you seem to be grasping.. i know all the military first aid .. much more than your average office first aid officer would have. i could in a pinch, deliver a normal birth if i had to.. when i say limited, i am saying i know much less than a nurse/doctor.

Sorry, I didn't mean to snub your knowledge. It sounds like you know quite a lot more first-aid than I do





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 8:50pm 2004


as i said, a bit of common sense mike.. if john doe is dead already.. 4 hours of cpr is a bit extreme..

also, you must know, i rarely get more than 1 hour deep.. i have very limited resources.. i use no ropes and such, but amateurs like me rely on flashlight batteries.. and 20 pounds of them suck ass.. i don't leave dead ones inside.. so i have to haul them both ways.

also, i didn't mean to snub either.. i assumed you knew all military personnel take basic first aid for battle conditions..

sorry my bad.. i didn't mean to flaunt.. i am not here to steal your thunder..

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 8:53pm 2004


Flashlight batteries for your lights An LED would be a good investment. They last for 40-100 hours on a single battery.





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 9:02pm 2004


? posted by Gollum

Flashlight batteries for your lights An LED would be a good investment. They last for 40-100 hours on a single battery.

really, you got a link? i have no idea what you mean.. nothing i have ever owned would last more than 60 minutes of constant use..

/methinks you thinking pro spelunking.. /me is basic wal-mart variety caver..

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Gollum on Wed Jun 2nd at 9:15pm 2004


? posted by Orpheus
? posted by Gollum

Flashlight batteries for your lights An LED would be a good investment. They last for 40-100 hours on a single battery.

really, you got a link? i have no idea what you mean.. nothing i have ever owned would last more than 60 minutes of constant use..

/methinks you thinking pro spelunking.. /me is basic wal-mart variety caver..

Caving gear isn't cheap, but it isn't *too* expensive either. Might be worth checking out what prices you can get in the U.S.

I have one of these on order (the 7 bulb variety): http://www.speleo.co.uk/fxled.html . It cost me about ?30 for the reflector/LEDs, ?5 for the halogen bulb and ?42 for the headset/cable/battery pack. So ?78 in total. That doesn't include a protective helmet (worth making sure any lights you purchase will fit your helmet).

I get a discount through the club - we're unofficially sponsored by Ben Lyon - so I don't know what normal retail prices are. Guess: + 20% extra.

Halogen uses much more power. I almost always cave on LEDs; halogen is just to focus a powerful beam on something.

For the prettiest light, though, use carbide. Only slight drawback is that you can set yourself on fire





Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 2nd at 9:40pm 2004


have not seen carbide in 20 years.. am not even sure its available anymore.. at least not on your average store shelves..

i will check into that light.. looks coolness

now.. i have taken enuff of your threads time.. back on topic peeps

[addsig]




Quote
Re: Feedback on an important document
Posted by flashman on Wed Jun 2nd at 10:19pm 2004


Nice work, Gollum. Well laid out, informative and concise. A huge improvement on the first draft.


? posted by Orpheus

.... all the metric crap

This made me laugh - a lot.





Post Reply