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Delay the US election?
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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by $loth on Mon Jul 12th at 7:10pm 2004

Wow, i got the joke!

I think there should be alternatives to oil for fuel, and there should be some serious research into it carried out. In england, the average cost of fule is 80p [ about 1.12 dollars] for a litre. If it stays like this, i will be on no more than a scooter in my life.

[addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Ferret on Mon Jul 12th at 7:27pm 2004

scooters rock man, they rock.

orph, I will comment when I get home. I'm at work atm stealing my mothers computer.





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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Hugh on Mon Jul 12th at 7:44pm 2004

? posted by SumhObo
Oh yeah, and there's also the deal with that new "Iraqi" governing council. Its members may have all been born in Iraq, but they were hand-picked by Bush and his assortment of happy friends. Democracy, anyone?

Well, this is an old quote, but might as well say it: the governing council is no more, the current president and prime minister of Iraq were approved by the UN.





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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by $loth on Mon Jul 12th at 7:44pm 2004

yes ferret...... bikes with hair dryers attached rock do they? They have the worst sound ever... [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by gimpinthesink on Mon Jul 12th at 7:54pm 2004

ah I love scooters just to see the kids leaning as far forward as they can just to get an extra 1 mph out of it but it never works unless there going down a hill.

It makes me chukkle.

I knew someone who was leaning as far forward as he could and he had the bike at full revs but he got hold of the handle with his left hand so he could use his right to try to pull it round further it didnt work though but I laughed and laughed at him.
[addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by $loth on Mon Jul 12th at 8:09pm 2004

My funnyiest encounter with someone with a scooter is a townie wearing a baseball cap, only too see it get blown off by the wind. Made me lmao off [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Crono on Mon Jul 12th at 8:13pm 2004

? quote:
Wow, i got the joke!

I think there should be alternatives to oil for fuel, and there should be some serious research into it carried out. In england, the average cost of fule is 80p [ about 1.12 dollars] for a litre. If it stays like this, i will be on no more than a scooter in my life.


You're a year or two too late

MIT converted a car (I think it was a Toyota) to run on water using hydrogen fuel cells, it got the same amount of mileage, with water vapor as the exhaust.

Honda and GM are making cars that are hybrids between gasoline and other fuels that are clean burning.

Basically it comes down to the fact that, EVERYONE has a fossil fuel powered car. If they introduced a newly fueled car into the market, it'd be way too expensive, since its not in surplus, so it would undoubtedly be phased out.

That's why they're taking it slow. But there has been massive amounts of research into the idea.

And actually, you can buy Oil powered cards from Honda right now, you just have to bring it up on your own, but they make them. Also you can convert your current car.

My friend (who's becoming an auto mechanic) was telling me about this car from ... I think it was Honda, I'm not sure, and the exhaust was cleaner then the air surrounding the car, so you could suck on the tail pipe (theoretically) and have cleaner air.

Anyway, there's a crap load of alternatives companies, schools, and people have been pushing. But ... people don't realize how much importance oil has on the economy. [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by $loth on Mon Jul 12th at 8:30pm 2004

Yea, i heard about the hydrogen, but i didn't know it was marketed. [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Gwil on Mon Jul 12th at 10:54pm 2004

Lots of research, just one company who refuse to acknowledge the need (and massive financial gain, i'd wager) for change on the car market..

who is it?

EXXON! - translates into "Esso" or, "evil", if you prefer!


[addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Jul 12th at 11:50pm 2004

? quote:

MIT converted a car (I think it was a Toyota) to run on water using hydrogen fuel cells, it got the same amount of mileage, with water vapor as the exhaust.


That doesn't work. Either your source is incorrect, or there was also another source of power in the car.

It all comes down to the reactions: Hydrogen reacts with Oxygen if you add heat or a spark to produce water and a bunch of extra energy due to the bonds that are formed. On the other hand, water will break its bonds and revert to Hydrogen and Oxygen if you add enough energy, like running electricity through it (electrolysis). The reactions are like this:

2H2 + O2 >> 2H20 + energy
2H20 + energy >> 2H2 + O2

As you can see, the two reactions are just the reverse of each other. Thus the amount of energy produced by the explosion of hydrogen is the same as the amount of energy (in electricity) required to extract that Hydrogen from water.

So if you used an electric battery to electrolysize some water and then used the hydrogen extracted to power a car, it would be the same as if you had just used the battery to power an electric motor and skipped the hydrogen fuel cell altogether.

In fact, it would be even slightly worse. Since no reaction is 100% energy efficient, in every chemical reaction you lose a tiny bit of energy that you can't get back (the entropy of the universe is always in the increase). Therefore, if you do a reaction, and then use the products to do the reaction backwards, you will end out at the same place you started, minus a tiny bit of energy. Basically it takes a bit more energy from the battery to extract hydrogen from water then you get from exploding the hydrogen.




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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Leperous on Tue Jul 13th at 12:01am 2004

Any reactional power source is just the same though- at the end you're just reacting two things together which probably just started out as the products from your reaction. Electrolyze the water in a factory or make some petrol out of rotting plants, it's the same sort of thing; your car will only be "breaking even" if it's solar/nuclear. The point is that it makes for a decent fuel to carry with you, in terms of weight, storage and efficiency.





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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by mazemaster on Tue Jul 13th at 12:02am 2004

Basically the process you (Crono) describe is this:


It doesn't work because the total energy of all things going into a process, whatever that process is, must equal the total energy of all things leaving the process.

If that alone does not convince you that its impossible, then consider what would happen if you used the product water to do the process again. And again. And again... You would have a way of creating an infinite amount energy using only the water you started with. [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by mazemaster on Tue Jul 13th at 12:04am 2004

Also, Lep, the water you would carry wouldn't be the actual fuel. The actual fuel would be whatever battery (or other device) that you use to get electricity to extract the hydrogen. If you carried straight hydrogen with you then that would be the fuel, but not water. [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Leperous on Tue Jul 13th at 12:04am 2004

? posted by Crono
MIT converted a car (I think it was a Toyota) to run on water using hydrogen fuel cells, it got the same amount of mileage, with water vapor as the exhaust.

Your car has hydrogen bottles on it; sure you have to electrolyse some water first, but do it in a big solar powered factory and you're ok

*edit* whoa Nelly, slow down with the old replies The car carries hydrogen with it, I know, seems you don't though





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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Jul 13th at 12:05am 2004

dammit, i hate it when these threads degrade so far above my education

*shuffles away downtrodden*

[addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by mazemaster on Tue Jul 13th at 12:08am 2004

The part of that which bothers me is the phrase:

"MIT converted a car (I think it was a Toyota) to run on water"

The car isn't running on water in any way. Its running on Hydrogen. [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Crono on Tue Jul 13th at 12:28am 2004

Jesus Christ, Maze, calm the f**k down.

Its my understanding that the fuel cell they used extracts the hydrogen from the water on its own simply by contact, in other words, it can extract hydrogen from any liquid.

And if you believe I'm wrong, so be it. But this is was MIT and several motor companies are doing ...

So, are you saying they're lying?
In either case, it's not a big deal, its just what I read straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. [addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Juim on Tue Jul 13th at 2:22am 2004

Heres what I see:

George Bush: Idiot,loser, Oil Baron.Desperate in the wake of floundering opinion polls, dreams up yet another crafty way to institute a barely legal form of censorship, this time preventing an entire country from voting all at once(remember when he won an entire country wide vote by less than 2500 votes, ... in the state which happened to be governed by his brother?). I would'nt be suprised if he staged his own terrorist attack just so he can make another spinky speech and bring around another victory. The guys IS a moron, and I don't see why America can't see that.





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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Jul 13th at 2:40am 2004

? posted by Juim

Heres what I see:

George Bush: Idiot,loser, Oil Baron.Desperate in the wake of floundering opinion polls, dreams up yet another crafty way to institute a barely legal form of censorship, this time preventing an entire country from voting all at once(remember when he won an entire country wide vote by less than 2500 votes, ... in the state which happened to be governed by his brother?). I would'nt be suprised if he staged his own terrorist attack just so he can make another spinky speech and bring around another victory. The guys IS a moron, and I don't see why America can't see that.

dammit juim, stop pussyfooting around and just say what you feel for christ sakes.

[addsig]



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 Re: Delay the US election?
Posted by Crono on Tue Jul 13th at 3:00am 2004

Actually ... as much as people don't like to admit ... your vote, in all actuality, DOESN'T matter.

The electoral college is the chumps who decide who the next president is, however, that's made up of senators and such from each state, so their vote is suppose to reflect their state ... but ... if they just voted for who they thought should win ... that person would win.

The popular vote doesn't mean much, sorry [addsig]




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