actually bruce

LOL, no one would debate that silly, the issue though, comes in when the mapper thinks they know enuff already... if the map is unplayable, its unplayable, the amount of detail is not ever IMO the reason for this, but instead its the authors inability to incorporate good ideas.

i would better listen to a mappers advice, simply because a mapper can play, but a player cannot map. a good player knows what they want, but not the foggiest idea how to achieve it, or even if its possible, a good mapper can envision a great map, and if he is lucky produce it, and in some cases acknowledge why it failed. for this reason alone, you should never consult strictly players, the map will fail every time.. the next question though would be, if you relied strictly on mappers for advice, would this guarantee a successful map?? not really, but the odds are considerably higher, the only weak link would be the mappers ability.

maps that are built to suit players usually never fall into the good, or great categorie... they usually are just crap, period. if a map is liked by players, it was prolly not because of them.

anywho's, in the end, if its successful, who cares how it got that way

i hate to admit a short coming, but this one seems to be mine, cause it never occurs to me how people can screw the system like this..

you make a good point, i dunno if its because you know how to screw stuff up, or are just that smart.. but anywho's.. you are most definitely right... sorry, i didn't see it before i posted the silly request

thanx lep.

if a mapper consults players and produces a quality map, it was the skill of the mapper that pulled it off. if the map fails, it was because the mapper was stupid enuff to ask players.

players are a necessary by product of the first person shooters, a necessary evil that mappers must contend with. no matter what the map looks like, some will think it great, some not.. very damned few mappers make all perfect creations.

if you learn to play a piano, and do it well enuff to pick up some sheet music of bach, and play it flawlessly, it still doesn't make you bach, or his equal.. and i might add it would be very arrogant to think otherwise.. you are not, nor will you ever be, bach.

anyways, even if you disagree with any or all of this viewpoint, it doesn't make it incorrect, you just happen to disagree with it.. you are not bach remember.. so don't even entertain the idea that you know better.

bottomline, if a map is played, it is played.. it has been proven many times that quality and played seldome coincide..

/ 2 cents

Sheeeeez, and I thought you were the one who told other people that they had no sense for humor. You've been here longer, yeh you're right I should start blowing some smoke up your ass for that fact.

All I said was that some people actually do value the comments of players, and since you were advising leperous to make these players unable to rate a map I considered it unwise and made a comment.

"no one here should have to hear any opinions except from peer's"

In the future, I'll shut the f**k up and keep all to myself because it seems this forum isn't made for the non-established to share their opinion.

? posted by Orpheus

? posted by Gwil Below the 5th news post is some bold yellow text saying "click here to show the rest of the news posts" or somesuch, go check your profile orph.. its there i deepest gratitudes bud.. i swear i did not see that before.. i suppose its time for new glasses.. thanx, and sorry for posting a needless request.

anybody else and I would have held them at gunpoint for their crimes

consider this, no one has yet said anything about your editing questions you keep asking in your map thread

seriously nick, questions are questions, ask them in the editing forums.. if it has to do with anything editing maps.

in case it skipped your notice, the "user stats" page has more items

nice job lep.