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BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Nov 7th at 1:53pm 2004

? quoting scary_jeff
Interesting.

So you would not sacrifice the mother for an unborn baby. I don't have a problem with that at all. What if there was an unborn baby that was definately going to have a hihgly dibilitating desease and not live past say the age of 8? Allowing the baby to be born does in effect destroy the lives of both parents involved. Would you support an abortion in such a situation? If not, what if the age that the baby would live to were only 4 years, or just 1?

I'm not saying you should or shouldnt support abortion in this case, I'm just interested as to what your view is.

you are entering a new realm jeff, one not necessarily abortion related..

i also feel it should be a one case by one case situation decision, you could never think all children with birth defects should be killed.. yes i would consider a disease a birth defect, its not just missing limbs.

i also feel that just because we can keep a baby alive that we not always have a right to do so.. not only does it incur high debt on the part of the parents, but it also tends to create a false hope.. most times the infant is alive, but not living..

you jeff, are talking about grey areas and i am not sure how i feel.. i do however believe in euthanasia, where applicable..

i also, am not completely comfortable with being center stage again.. many here are not ready for my brand of thinking.. in spite of the fact that i am not an enigma, many share my views.

[addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Cash Car Star on Mon Nov 8th at 5:13am 2004

I know a couple (both MIT grads no less) who's third child was born without a large portion of the brain. It's been like five years now and he can hardly do more than stare straight ahead. I don't know how they keep up, he requires constant supervision and often can't perform many essential tasks (breathing...). It really brings the world of eerie birth defects frighteningly close to home.

? quoting Orpheus

my thinking on abortion basically circles the women whom abuse the system with it truly.. i have always believed that if you play, you must pay.. anyways, i just wanted to clear things up, i am not completely heartless to the women..

What about rape? You can't quite tell those women, "Hey, you played with fire, deal with the consequences." Well, you can tell them deal with the consequences, but they certainly weren't playing with fire.





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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by OtZman on Mon Nov 8th at 4:04pm 2004

? quoting Orpheus

many here are not ready for my brand of thinking.. in spite of the fact that i am not an enigma, many share my views.



Your opinion is a little unfamiliar to me. Probably because I live in a country where abortion is fully legal. You might have a point that people should face the consequences for what they do and not turn abortion into something they do "just like that" just because they didn't care to protect themselves against pregnancy.
[addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Mon Nov 8th at 5:59pm 2004

? quoting scary_jeff

? quote:
I do accept that. Obviously allowing guns raises the number of gun-related deaths. The arguments is that there is less total violent crime, as I stated above.


That's not my argument.

No, but it is my argument.

[addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Crono on Mon Nov 8th at 6:03pm 2004

How do you know some of them don't get pregnant to supply embryos for research? And why the hell would you be against that? It is that woman's cells after all, in which she would have consented with at least two other people to achieve that goal. I just think the ways the laws stand now are fine. You can't have an abortion after, what? 4 months or so (maybe a little later then that). Also, if those people can't support the child, are you saying it is fair to the child to f**k them up by putting them in a poor dysfunctional family? Saying, "Put them in adoption" isn't a very good idea either, there are too many orphans already, most just grow up and are let go to fend for themselves. Also, you can't say, "Hey, if you didn't want a baby, don't have sex", because you have no say in those people's life. I don't understand why a lot of people don't get that point. If they're not your children or a personal friend or anything like that, it's none of your business. To be perfectly honest, we would be in really bad shape if no woman could have an abortion without proper cause. Population would tremendously higher as would taxes. There would be people who can't even support themselves, have a child they can't take care of instead of going to have an abortion, because it's "immoral". In return, they file for government funded aid, and you pay more taxes to support them, but oh wait, you don't want to do that either. There are also other situations like, if some girl has a baby, it'll f**k her life up, completely, which otherwise would be very beneficial. Are you saying, "Tough s**t! Be Miserable"? Anyway you slice it the only way it would work out best for everyone is if you just leave them alone, let them get an abortion if they want one. It really has nothing to do with your personal opinion on the topic, you simply have no right to tell those people what to do with their bodies and their children, which are still part of their body (They are physically connected; it is a one way symbiotic relationship). I don't know, I think people have the choice, the reason why abortion was made legal was because woman were becoming injured and sterile trying to end the pregnancy other ways.

[Note: It logged out and killed my newlines, deal with reading it] [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Hugh on Mon Nov 8th at 6:41pm 2004

The reason that there are so many orphans is because people want to adopt babies, not older children who'll be able to distinguish between their new guardians and their actual parents. [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Crono on Mon Nov 8th at 6:51pm 2004

You're saying it as if there is one specific reason... [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Hugh on Mon Nov 8th at 7:04pm 2004

Fine, I'll list some more reasons.

Many people habitually like babies more because they're "cute."

Many people prefer raising a child from birth rather than from where they're already somewhat developed so that they can leave a bigger mark on them.





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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Crono on Mon Nov 8th at 7:15pm 2004

I meant, in relation to abortion.
Not whether or not people like adopting babies more. [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Hugh on Mon Nov 8th at 7:19pm 2004

? quoting Crono
Saying, "Put them in adoption" isn't a very good idea either, there are too many orphans already, most just grow up and are let go to fend for themselves

Most orphans aren't babies, that's my point. Saying that because there are still orphans means that people don't want to adopt isn't the best logic, as they just don't want to adopt older children.

[addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Crono on Mon Nov 8th at 8:05pm 2004

I never said "people don't want to adopt children".
I said, putting them in an orphanage is not a proper answer to an unwanted child. It's one thing to have an abortion, which only directly effects you, your partner, and probably the doctor. Not including family relations.
When putting a child in an orphanage, it effects many more people.

The entire point I was making was, there is no "golden answer" and if you let certain morals get in the way, it will never work, I'm sorry, but that's how it is. No matter how against abortion you may be, you can't tell people not to do it. It isn't your choice, nor should you really care what that person does.
It isn't everyone elses duty to tell other people, who they don't know, what to do. That's the entire issue with everything that just happened. [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by $loth on Mon Nov 8th at 8:13pm 2004

Does it really matter that bush won? to me yes, I would rather kerry won, at least give him a chance to prove himself. [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Hugh on Mon Nov 8th at 8:13pm 2004

No, putting them into an orphanage isn't a proper answer, but many people would be more willing to adopt a baby than a somewhat grown child who'll be able to recognize their new parents as more of a guardian figure.

I tried looking for orphanage demographics, and most are in the 0-5 age group... sadly it didn't split it up anymore than that so I can't say for certain how many of those are of the younger variety.

Hence, agree to disagree as I'm apparently incapable of informing myself.

Edit: $loth, most of the people who don't like Bush don't like him because of his first 4 years, which is probably enough time to judge someone. To them, he has proved himself... as a damn hooligan.





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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Crono on Mon Nov 8th at 8:17pm 2004

? quoting $loth
Does it really matter that bush won? to me yes, I would rather kerry won, at least give him a chance to prove himself.

[addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Nov 9th at 3:21am 2004

seems to me, that the lines are clearly drawn on all the subjects this thread has covered.. i think its time to put it to bed.. we are not going to convert anyone by continuing to debate them..

if you were pro-choice, you still are, if you were not, you are still that too..

if you hated bush, well guess what? as for kerry, its moot, cause he didn't win.

if you didn't liked my opinions before this thread began, tough s**t

just say "Good night Gracie"

[addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Crono on Tue Nov 9th at 4:40am 2004

I like how you said, "If you didn't liked my opinions before ...".

You sure are from Arkansas (look! I'm poking fun at your public schools!!)

Seriously, what are they now? 49th? I know the intelligent people of Missouri ( I think) sued the school district, in effect, themselves. And they were 47th! [addsig]



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 Re: BUSH WINS NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Nov 9th at 9:55am 2004

? quoting Crono
I like how you said, "If you didn't liked my opinions before ...".

You sure are from Arkansas (look! I'm poking fun at your public schools!!)

Seriously, what are they now? 49th? I know the intelligent people of Missouri ( I think) sued the school district, in effect, themselves. And they were 47th!

i drove a very long way, i was very sleepy.. there were a dozen or more typo's just in this one post.. i spell checked and all, but.

i just gave up and went to bed.. if you hadn't noticed, i only posted 1/2 a dozen times.. not my usual

yeah, arkansas is really up there in the rankings.. odd though, it must be a close race cause i have met some pretty stupid kids from all over in my travels

[addsig]




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