Half life 3
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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Dec 15th at 5:47pm 2004


? quoting Nickelplate
HL3 would be nice, but will take FOREVER. It is a matter of public record that valve was dragging thier ass while building the source engine

It's official. You are an egocentric idiot. Corporations do not take unprofitable actions simply to spite their customer base. The argument that Valve ever delayed the game on purpose is as nonsensical as any I've ever heard.

[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 7:20pm 2004


HL3 would be an excellent decision, both in economics and design. But the fact is, it will take years.

Staff sizes are exploding at studios around the industry, but with higher demand for better, more detailed, and more impressive art content and functionality, the time it takes to develop these titles is growing at an even greater rate. Team size may double or even triple for some studios, but content creation times are multiplied by at least five or six, if not tenfold.

Valve and id are in good shape going into their next projects because they can build from their existing technology. That cuts a lot of development time out of the way and means the content they build early on has a greater chance of still being usable. But that doesn't mean it still won't be years before those titles hit shelves.

Valve has spoken of doing some episodic content with Alyx and Dog, perhaps, sort of a piece-by-piece prequel to HL2. That would rock and would keep a small portion of their staff busy while letting the brunt of people work on the other project. They're a big enough studio they can afford to do that.

Has anyone here ever developed on an engine before the first game with it shipped (Finger, perhaps)? It's not pleasant - no matter how good the engine is, things are always changing, and that means things break and things become obsolete. Both very often. And to imply "dragging [ones collective] ass" is an insult to the ridiculous amount of work it takes to get things done in such a situation.

? quote:
Thinking about it, why did the Source engine take so long to develop? Apart from sticking in some candy floss and the physics engine it doesn't feel vastly different to the one used in HL1... perhaps I'm underestimating the amount of time it takes to put in pretty water effects.


Well, covering a 128x128 brush in HL was done with a 128x128 texture. Doing so in HL2 takes a 512x512 texture. Increases to resolution and detail in textures and models is where most of the extended length comes from. In Valve's case, it isn't so much the tech itself that holds things up - I still don't really consider the Source engine true "next-gen" technology, which is where the real timeframe increases lie - but rather, their art direction. HL2 has some of the best art direction I've ever seen in a game. The attention to detail they gave every zone (even lighting maps to make the progression through the game feel more natural) takes an extra layer of time beyond content creation. The payoff is huge - HL2 is host to one of the best environments I've ever been thrust into in a game. [addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Dec 15th at 7:37pm 2004


? quoting Tracer Bullet

It's official. You are an egocentric idiot. Corporations do not take unprofitable actions simply to spite their customer base. The argument that Valve ever delayed the game on purpose is as nonsensical as any I've ever heard.

And *you* are being a mean-spirited f**ktard. It doesn't hurt VALVe's profits one little bit to cut half fo the content out of such an anticipated game!! Seriously, think about how many people were looking forward to this. Millions would have bought it even if CNN reported that there was a VIRUS on each copy.

And i am not saying that they did it to spite thier customers, They did it to make all the christmas cash. They missed last year's because of the hacking.

[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Crono on Wed Dec 15th at 8:48pm 2004


? quote:
I'm curious, does the Blue Shift story at all fit in with what happens in HL2? As in, nothing happens in that that contradicts Barney being around and acting fairly normal?


You're not Barney in Blue-Shift.

It's pretty stupid actually. It would have been better if there was more content, but there isn't. The most difficult opposition you meet are marines. Not to mention there is no end boss like the HL or Opposing Force.

All that happens in Blue-Shift is you escape Black Mesa get into a truck and drive off with some scientists before some marines come in to ruin your s**t (which wouldn't happen because playing it you're most likely a veteran in OP4 which has monsters ten times as difficult to kill)

Nickelplate, I would have boughten it anyway if CNN said that, just because CNN lies a lot.


[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 8:53pm 2004


You are Barney. They specifically refer to you as Calhoun who knows how many times.

Blue Shift was intended to be an addition to HL for the DC, I think, but when that fell through they released it separately. For being a bonus mission, I thought it was quite good. [addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Crono on Wed Dec 15th at 9:03pm 2004


? quote:
You are Barney. They specifically refer to you as Calhoun who knows how many times.

Blue Shift was intended to be an addition to HL for the DC, I think, but when that fell through they released it separately. For being a bonus mission, I thought it was quite good.


What I was saying is you aren't the same person in HL2 which is 'Barney'. In hl1 it was just a generic security guard name. But with Blue-Shift, obviously, you have a different name. Thus you aren't the same 'barney' that's in HL2 ...


[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Dec 15th at 9:04pm 2004


You are missing the point of my comment. Note that I didn't include the bit about leaving out content in my quote. I took issue with the first part of your statement because I am damn tired of that particular attitude.

The picture painted by the "drag ass" theory is of the big bad corporation victimizing you, the poor helpless gamer. Please. What did they do, fail to release their product based on your ignorant timetable? It presupposes that your individual wishes and petty desires are of personal importance to a corporate entity. Furthermore, it attributes malice to said entity, which is patently ridicules.

As for me being a f**ktard... if that was a word, I might be hurt by your insult. However, I do understand the spirit of the comment, so I will offer a meager explanation. I think I'm something like Dr. Jackal and Mr. Jackass. Sometimes I'm nice to a fault, but at others I'll rip your heart out... you just never know.

[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 9:13pm 2004


? quote:
What I was saying is you aren't the
same person in HL2 which is 'Barney'. In hl1 it was just a generic
security guard name. But with Blue-Shift, obviously, you have a
different name. Thus you aren't the same 'barney' that's in HL2 ...


In HL1, it was a generic name, yes. In Blue Shift, you were specifically named Barney Calhoun. Now, unless there's more than one guy named 'Barney' in Black Mesa security... [addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Crono on Wed Dec 15th at 9:14pm 2004


Was is Barney Calhoun? I don't really remember. Oh well. What a pussy then.
[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Dec 15th at 10:42pm 2004


? quoting Tracer Bullet
You are missing the point of my comment. Note that I didn't include the bit about leaving out content in my quote. I took issue with the first part of your statement because I am damn tired of that particular attitude.

The picture painted by the "drag ass" theory is of the big bad corporation victimizing you, the poor helpless gamer. Please. What did they do, fail to release their product based on your ignorant timetable? It presupposes that your individual wishes and petty desires are of personal importance to a corporate entity. Furthermore, it attributes malice to said entity, which is patently ridicules.

As for me being a f**ktard... if that was a word, I might be hurt by your insult. However, I do understand the spirit of the comment, so I will offer a meager explanation. I think I'm something like Dr. Jackal and Mr. Jackass. Sometimes I'm nice to a fault, but at others I'll rip your heart out... you just never know.

Well, all i'm saying with drag-ass is they took thier sweet time.

AND said corporate entity heretofore having claims of developing products FOR "the poor, helpless gamer", would most likely find it a lucrative option to not anger aforementioned "gamers." I don't know of ONE single HL fan (though i'm sure there was a few) that said "Hey, that's GREAT!" when SEPT, 30 rolled around and there was no HL2. This having been said, one could surmise that game companies would try to please gamers as much as possible because once someone gets miffed at a company they tend to hold a grudge and NOT buy thier products with the same fervor as those who would have bought ti after the "virus announcement"

As for "f**ktard" being a word, It's a contraction of f**king, and Retard (see "f**ktard") and you don't need to take offense to that, I was just reciprocating your derrogatory choice of verbage.

Anyway, If you saw the leaked version or some of the E3 stuff, you would know why I am disappointed in the final product and it's lack of content.

[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by omegaslayer on Wed Dec 15th at 10:47pm 2004


I think valve should "hammer (no pun intended) out the dents" in the source engine before they move on to HL3 or any expansion, like dynamic lighting like in doom 3 would make it the ULTIMATE Engine, or the audio shuttering that everyone is talking about (although I've never experenced it)

Currently Im waiting for Quake 4 and the new Unreal 3 engine to come out.
[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 11:01pm 2004


? quote:
Anyway, If you saw the leaked version or some of the E3 stuff, you would know why I am disappointed in the final product and it's lack of content.


Did Ravenholm seem familiar to you? Traptown from the E3 demonstration. Some of the C17 stuff I recognized as being modified from the strider combat videos. Highway 17 was the buggy demo. Yet Ravenholm was nothing like Traptown in game dynamics.

Point is, things change. A lot. Odds are, with the exception of the ship and the docks, many of the areas depicted in the E3 demo have since been overhauled into new form for whatever reason. You may not recognize what it evolved to, but that doesn't mean it's not there. [addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Dec 15th at 11:28pm 2004


? quoting Nickelplate

Well, all i'm saying with drag-ass is they took thier sweet time.

AND said corporate entity heretofore having claims of developing products FOR "the poor, helpless gamer", would most likely find it a lucrative option to not anger aforementioned "gamers." I don't know of ONE single HL fan (though i'm sure there was a few) that said "Hey, that's GREAT!" when SEPT, 30 rolled around and there was no HL2. This having been said, one could surmise that game companies would try to please gamers as much as possible because once someone gets miffed at a company they tend to hold a grudge and NOT buy thier products with the same fervor as those who would have bought ti after the "virus announcement"

Ergo... Valve didn't "take it's sweet time" They took the amount of time that was necessary for development. You make a statement and then proceed to contradict yourself with the argument.

Fact: It is in the best interest of the developers to please gamers.

Fact: HL2 took a very long time to develop, which pissed off gamers.

Your conclusion: Valve delayed the game on purpose.

My conclusion: Valve brought HL2 to market as fast as possible while still delivering a quality product.

The only way you can possibly support your conclusion of intentional delay, is to attribute a malicious motive to Valve. Do I need to go any further to explain how stupid that sounds?

On the subject of insults:

I called you an "egocentric idiot". You called me a "mean-spirited f**ktard". Using "words" like that just make you sound dumb. Mean-spirited is good, and in this case accurate, but f**ktard is just childish, which spoiled the whole impact of the comment. You could have called me a "mean-spirited arrogant pedant", been much closer to the mark, and still stayed within the bounds of the officially accepted lexicon.

[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by SaintGreg on Thu Dec 16th at 1:02am 2004


Omegaslayer - adding dynamic lighting like that isn't exactly hammering out the dents. Ill bet the doom3 engine was designed around that idea. IE it would be extremely difficult, and probably not produce as quality a product if you added it as an afterthought.




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Bantam on Thu Dec 16th at 1:56am 2004


VUG, distributors of the boxed version of Half-Life 2, have filed a case against Valve, accusing them of "fraud, delaying tatics and mistrusths in relation to Half-Life 2 and Steam". This is from PC Gamer Issue 142.

Also in the article is a extract from the court filings.

"Beginning in 1999, following the success of its first game, Valve began to threaten Sierra that it would halt or slow development of the remaining games it was obligated to develop unless Sierra relinquished certain rights under the 1997 agreements. Sierra eventually capitulated to these cemands and, relying on the misrepresentations by Valve, entered into a new software publishing agreement (SPA) with Valve in 2001.

"Among other concessions, Sierra agreed to relinquish intellectual property rights and to allow Valve certain rights to the online distribution of games.

"Valve did not disclose during the negotiations over the 2001 SPA that is was in the process of developing a new technology called Steam that would allow consumers who would normally purchase games from Sierra/VUG at retail to purchase those products online directly from Valve."


More fool Sierra/VUG you might say for signing over the rights, but it still smacks of something stinky coming from the Valve. It would also explain the number of delays in the production of HL2. Despite the hacking, you would of thought the game would've been out quite a while ago. Maybe Valve were just waiting till they were happy with the robustness of Steam to take online orders before they let VUG have a candidate copy of HL2 for release.

I'll be quite interested in the outcome of the case anyway.




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Dec 16th at 2:44am 2004


? quoting Tracer Bullet
? quoting Nickelplate

Well, all i'm saying with drag-ass is they took thier sweet time.

AND said corporate entity heretofore having claims of developing products FOR "the poor, helpless gamer", would most likely find it a lucrative option to not anger aforementioned "gamers." I don't know of ONE single HL fan (though i'm sure there was a few) that said "Hey, that's GREAT!" when SEPT, 30 rolled around and there was no HL2. This having been said, one could surmise that game companies would try to please gamers as much as possible because once someone gets miffed at a company they tend to hold a grudge and NOT buy thier products with the same fervor as those who would have bought ti after the "virus announcement"

Ergo... Valve didn't "take it's sweet time" They took the amount of time that was necessary for development. You make a statement and then proceed to contradict yourself with the argument.

Fact: It is in the best interest of the developers to please gamers.

Fact: HL2 took a very long time to develop, which pissed off gamers.

Your conclusion: Valve delayed the game on purpose.

My conclusion: Valve brought HL2 to market as fast as possible while still delivering a quality product.

The only way you can possibly support your conclusion of intentional delay, is to attribute a malicious motive to Valve. Do I need to go any further to explain how stupid that sounds?

On the subject of insults:

I called you an "egocentric idiot". You called me a "mean-spirited f**ktard". Using "words" like that just make you sound dumb. Mean-spirited is good, and in this case accurate, but f**ktard is just childish, which spoiled the whole impact of the comment. You could have called me a "mean-spirited arrogant pedant", been much closer to the mark, and still stayed within the bounds of the officially accepted lexicon.

Oy Veh! I never said that valve delayed release on purpose. I actually said the opposite: that valve released too soon thereby having to exclude segments that could have been paramount to further success. They wanted to make the christmas deadline, so they released too early. I mean, come on! MULTIPLAYER wasn't even included in the initial release!

I have since realized that "f**ktard" sounds rather like what is called "fanboy speech" therefore i will cease all usage of said name.

[addsig]




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Thu Dec 16th at 3:08am 2004


How do you define the phrase "drag ass" if not "intentionally delay"? [addsig]



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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Bantam on Thu Dec 16th at 3:19am 2004


Well, given that there's a law suit accusing Valve of "dragging ass" then it wasn't really as much of a ridiculous statement as you made out Tracer Bullet.

It isn't unheard of for large, reputable companies such as Valve to do somewhat naughty things, such as intentionally delay a game for financial gain.


Just because we enjoy the games they make doesn't mean we can't question whether or not they're whiter than white.




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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Dec 16th at 3:26am 2004


ah! I see where you oculd have gotten confused! It does seem like I was implying intentional excessive delay of game!! (HAHAHAHAHA) Anyway, I don't actually deny that they MIGHT not have. I think it's probably unlikely, but it could have happened. Just like VALVe getting hacked was unlikely and un-thought-of, It happened and no one suspected for a time. Only VALVe knows what the real deal is. Anyway, what i meant is that they went too slow with too much confidence in the fact that EVERYONE WILL buy thier game NO MATTER WHAT. I think they abused thier position as the maker of my favorite game, and they made me mad personally with all this delay nonsense. [addsig]



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Re: Half life 3
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Thu Dec 16th at 3:28am 2004


Bantam, you raise a good point. If in fact Valve stood to gain financially from delaying development, then I'd be prepared to believe it. I'd even be surprised if they didn't.

The point of my argument was that most people have claimed that Valve delayed release intentionally without providing any farther motive than some ambiguous malicious intent. Anything that can be legally done to increase profits and the health of the organization, a corporation will, and indeed should, do. You have provided a potentially sound motive, and if it bears out, rendered my argument impotent.

[addsig]




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