It's official. You are an egocentric idiot. Corporations do not take unprofitable actions simply to spite their customer base. The argument that Valve ever delayed the game on purpose is as nonsensical as any I've ever heard.
[addsig]Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Dec 15th at 5:47pm 2004
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Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 7:20pm 2004
Staff sizes are exploding at studios around the industry, but with higher demand for better, more detailed, and more impressive art content and functionality, the time it takes to develop these titles is growing at an even greater rate. Team size may double or even triple for some studios, but content creation times are multiplied by at least five or six, if not tenfold.
Valve and id are in good shape going into their next projects because they can build from their existing technology. That cuts a lot of development time out of the way and means the content they build early on has a greater chance of still being usable. But that doesn't mean it still won't be years before those titles hit shelves.
Valve has spoken of doing some episodic content with Alyx and Dog, perhaps, sort of a piece-by-piece prequel to HL2. That would rock and would keep a small portion of their staff busy while letting the brunt of people work on the other project. They're a big enough studio they can afford to do that.
Has anyone here ever developed on an engine before the first game with it shipped (Finger, perhaps)? It's not pleasant - no matter how good the engine is, things are always changing, and that means things break and things become obsolete. Both very often. And to imply "dragging [ones collective] ass" is an insult to the ridiculous amount of work it takes to get things done in such a situation.
Well, covering a 128x128 brush in HL was done with a 128x128 texture. Doing so in HL2 takes a 512x512 texture. Increases to resolution and detail in textures and models is where most of the extended length comes from. In Valve's case, it isn't so much the tech itself that holds things up - I still don't really consider the Source engine true "next-gen" technology, which is where the real timeframe increases lie - but rather, their art direction. HL2 has some of the best art direction I've ever seen in a game. The attention to detail they gave every zone (even lighting maps to make the progression through the game feel more natural) takes an extra layer of time beyond content creation. The payoff is huge - HL2 is host to one of the best environments I've ever been thrust into in a game. [addsig]
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Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Dec 15th at 7:37pm 2004
It's official. You are an egocentric idiot. Corporations do not take unprofitable actions simply to spite their customer base. The argument that Valve ever delayed the game on purpose is as nonsensical as any I've ever heard.
And *you* are being a mean-spirited f**ktard. It doesn't hurt VALVe's profits one little bit to cut half fo the content out of such an anticipated game!! Seriously, think about how many people were looking forward to this. Millions would have bought it even if CNN reported that there was a VIRUS on each copy.
And i am not saying that they did it to spite thier customers, They did it to make all the christmas cash. They missed last year's because of the hacking.
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Posted by Crono on Wed Dec 15th at 8:48pm 2004
You're not Barney in Blue-Shift.
It's
pretty stupid actually. It would have been better if there was more
content, but there isn't. The most difficult opposition you meet are
marines. Not to mention there is no end boss like the HL or Opposing
Force.
All that happens in Blue-Shift is you escape Black Mesa
get into a truck and drive off with some scientists before some
marines come in to ruin your s**t (which wouldn't happen because
playing it you're most likely a veteran in OP4 which has monsters ten
times as difficult to kill)
Nickelplate, I would have boughten it anyway if CNN said that, just because CNN lies a lot.
[addsig]
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 8:53pm 2004
Blue Shift was intended to be an addition to HL for the DC, I think, but when that fell through they released it separately. For being a bonus mission, I thought it was quite good. [addsig]
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Posted by Crono on Wed Dec 15th at 9:03pm 2004
Blue Shift was intended to be an addition to HL for the DC, I think, but when that fell through they released it separately. For being a bonus mission, I thought it was quite good.
What I was saying is you aren't the same person in HL2 which is 'Barney'. In hl1 it was just a generic security guard name. But with Blue-Shift, obviously, you have a different name. Thus you aren't the same 'barney' that's in HL2 ...
[addsig]
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Dec 15th at 9:04pm 2004
You are missing the point of my comment. Note that I didn't include the bit about leaving out content in my quote. I took issue with the first part of your statement because I am damn tired of that particular attitude.
The picture painted by the "drag ass" theory is of the big bad corporation victimizing you, the poor helpless gamer. Please. What did they do, fail to release their product based on your ignorant timetable? It presupposes that your individual wishes and petty desires are of personal importance to a corporate entity. Furthermore, it attributes malice to said entity, which is patently ridicules.
As for me being a f**ktard... if that was a word, I might be hurt by your insult. However, I do understand the spirit of the comment, so I will offer a meager explanation. I think I'm something like Dr. Jackal and Mr. Jackass. Sometimes I'm nice to a fault, but at others I'll rip your heart out... you just never know. ![]()
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Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 9:13pm 2004
same person in HL2 which is 'Barney'. In hl1 it was just a generic
security guard name. But with Blue-Shift, obviously, you have a
different name. Thus you aren't the same 'barney' that's in HL2 ...
In HL1, it was a generic name, yes. In Blue Shift, you were specifically named Barney Calhoun. Now, unless there's more than one guy named 'Barney' in Black Mesa security... [addsig]
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Posted by Crono on Wed Dec 15th at 9:14pm 2004
[addsig]
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Dec 15th at 10:42pm 2004
The picture painted by the "drag ass" theory is of the big bad corporation victimizing you, the poor helpless gamer. Please. What did they do, fail to release their product based on your ignorant timetable? It presupposes that your individual wishes and petty desires are of personal importance to a corporate entity. Furthermore, it attributes malice to said entity, which is patently ridicules.
As for me being a f**ktard... if that was a word, I might be hurt by your insult. However, I do understand the spirit of the comment, so I will offer a meager explanation. I think I'm something like Dr. Jackal and Mr. Jackass. Sometimes I'm nice to a fault, but at others I'll rip your heart out... you just never know. ![]()
Well, all i'm saying with drag-ass is they took thier sweet time.
AND said corporate entity heretofore having claims of developing products FOR "the poor, helpless gamer", would most likely find it a lucrative option to not anger aforementioned "gamers." I don't know of ONE single HL fan (though i'm sure there was a few) that said "Hey, that's GREAT!" when SEPT, 30 rolled around and there was no HL2. This having been said, one could surmise that game companies would try to please gamers as much as possible because once someone gets miffed at a company they tend to hold a grudge and NOT buy thier products with the same fervor as those who would have bought ti after the "virus announcement"
As for "f**ktard" being a word, It's a contraction of f**king, and Retard (see "f**ktard") and you don't need to take offense to that, I was just reciprocating your derrogatory choice of verbage.
Anyway, If you saw the leaked version or some of the E3 stuff, you would know why I am disappointed in the final product and it's lack of content.
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Posted by omegaslayer on Wed Dec 15th at 10:47pm 2004
Currently Im waiting for Quake 4 and the new Unreal 3 engine to come out.
[addsig]
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Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Wed Dec 15th at 11:01pm 2004
Did Ravenholm seem familiar to you? Traptown from the E3 demonstration. Some of the C17 stuff I recognized as being modified from the strider combat videos. Highway 17 was the buggy demo. Yet Ravenholm was nothing like Traptown in game dynamics.
Point is, things change. A lot. Odds are, with the exception of the ship and the docks, many of the areas depicted in the E3 demo have since been overhauled into new form for whatever reason. You may not recognize what it evolved to, but that doesn't mean it's not there. [addsig]
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Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Dec 15th at 11:28pm 2004
Well, all i'm saying with drag-ass is they took thier sweet time.
AND said corporate entity heretofore having claims of developing products FOR "the poor, helpless gamer", would most likely find it a lucrative option to not anger aforementioned "gamers." I don't know of ONE single HL fan (though i'm sure there was a few) that said "Hey, that's GREAT!" when SEPT, 30 rolled around and there was no HL2. This having been said, one could surmise that game companies would try to please gamers as much as possible because once someone gets miffed at a company they tend to hold a grudge and NOT buy thier products with the same fervor as those who would have bought ti after the "virus announcement"
Ergo... Valve didn't "take it's sweet time" They took the amount of time that was necessary for development. You make a statement and then proceed to contradict yourself with the argument.
Fact: It is in the best interest of the developers to please gamers.
Fact: HL2 took a very long time to develop, which pissed off gamers.
Your conclusion: Valve delayed the game on purpose.
My conclusion: Valve brought HL2 to market as fast as possible while still delivering a quality product.
The only way you can possibly support your conclusion of intentional delay, is to attribute a malicious motive to Valve. Do I need to go any further to explain how stupid that sounds?
On the subject of insults:
I called you an "egocentric idiot". You called me a "mean-spirited f**ktard". Using "words" like that just make you sound dumb. Mean-spirited is good, and in this case accurate, but f**ktard is just childish, which spoiled the whole impact of the comment. You could have called me a "mean-spirited arrogant pedant", been much closer to the mark, and still stayed within the bounds of the officially accepted lexicon.
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Posted by SaintGreg on Thu Dec 16th at 1:02am 2004
Posted by Bantam on Thu Dec 16th at 1:56am 2004
Also in the article is a extract from the court filings.
"Beginning in 1999, following the success of its first game, Valve began to threaten Sierra that it would halt or slow development of the remaining games it was obligated to develop unless Sierra relinquished certain rights under the 1997 agreements. Sierra eventually capitulated to these cemands and, relying on the misrepresentations by Valve, entered into a new software publishing agreement (SPA) with Valve in 2001.
"Among other concessions, Sierra agreed to relinquish intellectual property rights and to allow Valve certain rights to the online distribution of games.
"Valve did not disclose during the negotiations over the 2001 SPA that is was in the process of developing a new technology called Steam that would allow consumers who would normally purchase games from Sierra/VUG at retail to purchase those products online directly from Valve."
More fool Sierra/VUG you might say for signing over the rights, but it still smacks of something stinky coming from the Valve. It would also explain the number of delays in the production of HL2. Despite the hacking, you would of thought the game would've been out quite a while ago. Maybe Valve were just waiting till they were happy with the robustness of Steam to take online orders before they let VUG have a candidate copy of HL2 for release.
I'll be quite interested in the outcome of the case anyway.
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Dec 16th at 2:44am 2004
Well, all i'm saying with drag-ass is they took thier sweet time.
AND said corporate entity heretofore having claims of developing products FOR "the poor, helpless gamer", would most likely find it a lucrative option to not anger aforementioned "gamers." I don't know of ONE single HL fan (though i'm sure there was a few) that said "Hey, that's GREAT!" when SEPT, 30 rolled around and there was no HL2. This having been said, one could surmise that game companies would try to please gamers as much as possible because once someone gets miffed at a company they tend to hold a grudge and NOT buy thier products with the same fervor as those who would have bought ti after the "virus announcement"
Ergo... Valve didn't "take it's sweet time" They took the amount of time that was necessary for development. You make a statement and then proceed to contradict yourself with the argument.
Fact: It is in the best interest of the developers to please gamers.
Fact: HL2 took a very long time to develop, which pissed off gamers.
Your conclusion: Valve delayed the game on purpose.
My conclusion: Valve brought HL2 to market as fast as possible while still delivering a quality product.
The only way you can possibly support your conclusion of intentional delay, is to attribute a malicious motive to Valve. Do I need to go any further to explain how stupid that sounds?
On the subject of insults:
I called you an "egocentric idiot". You called me a "mean-spirited f**ktard". Using "words" like that just make you sound dumb. Mean-spirited is good, and in this case accurate, but f**ktard is just childish, which spoiled the whole impact of the comment. You could have called me a "mean-spirited arrogant pedant", been much closer to the mark, and still stayed within the bounds of the officially accepted lexicon.
Oy Veh! I never said that valve delayed release on purpose. I actually said the opposite: that valve released too soon thereby having to exclude segments that could have been paramount to further success. They wanted to make the christmas deadline, so they released too early. I mean, come on! MULTIPLAYER wasn't even included in the initial release!
I have since realized that "f**ktard" sounds rather like what is called "fanboy speech" therefore i will cease all usage of said name.
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Posted by Tracer Bullet on Thu Dec 16th at 3:08am 2004
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Posted by Bantam on Thu Dec 16th at 3:19am 2004
It isn't unheard of for large, reputable companies such as Valve to do somewhat naughty things, such as intentionally delay a game for financial gain.
Just because we enjoy the games they make doesn't mean we can't question whether or not they're whiter than white.
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Dec 16th at 3:26am 2004
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Posted by Tracer Bullet on Thu Dec 16th at 3:28am 2004
Bantam, you raise a good point. If in fact Valve stood to gain financially from delaying development, then I'd be prepared to believe it. I'd even be surprised if they didn't.
The point of my argument was that most people have claimed that Valve delayed release intentionally without providing any farther motive than some ambiguous malicious intent. Anything that can be legally done to increase profits and the health of the organization, a corporation will, and indeed should, do. You have provided a potentially sound motive, and if it bears out, rendered my argument impotent.
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