Math gurus UNITE!
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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Monqui on Sun Oct 12th at 7:34am 2003


Our calculus professor gave us an extra credit assignment the other day, and I just can't seem to figgure it out for the life of me. Any help on it would be greatly appreciated.

Its basically a proof- each step is listed below. Obviously, the proof doesn't hold true, but I need to know where it falls apart.

When it say X times, it simply means that there are X values in the set. Meaning 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (X Times) Means there are X number of 1's in the equation.

Also, x^2 is my notation for x squared (x*x). In case thats a bit vague and all.

And D(x) means to take the derivative of whatevers in the ()'s.

-------------------------------------------

For x > 0:

x = 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (x times)

x^2 = x + x + ... + x (x times)

D(x^2) = D(x + x + ... + x (x times) )

D(x^2) = D(x) + D(x) + ... + D(x) (x times)

2x = 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (x times)

2x = x

2 = 1

-------------------------------------------

Any ideas? Sorry if this is vague, but I really want to know what is going on here. Especially since the prof. is evil about stuff like this and probably won't tell us the answer.

Thanks in advance. [addsig]




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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Gollum on Sun Oct 12th at 8:44am 2003


The error actually occurs at the beginning:

For x > 0,

x = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 .... (x times)

That's just not true in general. It's only true for integers (like -5, 0, 1, 10). For example, what does the expression mean if you set x = 0.5? Or even worse, what about x = pi?

Why doesn't the proof work if x is an integer? That would still "prove" that 2 = 1.

The rule,

D(x^2) = 2x

...is not a rule for a particular number x. It is a rule for the function x^2, which is a continuous (and hence differentiable) function.

What the proof is trying to say is something like this:

Hey Monqui, you know that 2x is the derivative of x^2, right? Now that's true at every point x, so in general the derivative of a real number must be twice its square root, and in particular this must be true of an integer.

But that's certainly not true. Let's take k = 16. Then D(k) = 8, right? But now express k as part of the function 2x. D(2x) = 2 for all x, so D(k) = D(8) = 2. But then 2 = 8.

The point is that there is no such thing as the derivative of a number. Only functions have derivatives.





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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Leperous on Sun Oct 12th at 10:00am 2003


Yes, in saying that x^2 = x + x + .. + x it's not continous and you can't differentiate.





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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by KoRnFlakes on Sun Oct 12th at 10:19am 2003


you can tell who got to go to a decent english school cant ya :/ [addsig]



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by scary_jeff on Sun Oct 12th at 11:49am 2003


yeah yeah, I knew that and my school was bad enough that one of the uni's I applied for gave me a special concession where I needed less points to get in becasue of my school



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Monqui on Sun Oct 12th at 3:27pm 2003


I knew it would be something obvious like that... Thanks a ton guys!

When he introduced the problem, he said that the less you know about derivitives the better. He normally gives the assignment out just before spring break so that the students can take the problem to their old teachers from high-school. The normal reaction by them is supposedly "wtf."

Ugh. I feel so stupid now :/ [addsig]




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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Kapten Ljusdal on Tue Oct 14th at 10:27am 2003






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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by DesPlesda on Wed Oct 15th at 9:23pm 2003


It's topics like these that remind me why I come here



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Gav on Thu Oct 16th at 11:18am 2003


Interesting point, I heard that Isaac Newton invented Calculas while a student at Cambridge university, however decided not to tell anyone for about 27 years. [addsig]



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Gollum on Thu Oct 16th at 11:20am 2003


I heard that Newton and Leibniz could never agree on who had first invented calculus, and that the consensus now is "they both did".



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Monqui on Thu Oct 16th at 2:48pm 2003


Yeah, Gollum is right. And I believe that if you go to German schools (in Germany), they get really offended if you tell them Newton invented it. Although it really isn't fair to say that one "invented it," since they really did come up with many of the same concepts around the same time. [addsig]



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Leperous on Thu Oct 16th at 3:18pm 2003


Plus it depends on whether you 'invent' or 'discover' maths... (I know half the crap they teach us in Algebra is blatantly made up though!)



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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Adam Hawkins on Thu Oct 16th at 3:28pm 2003


You lost me at 'x ='

[addsig]




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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by Monqui on Thu Oct 16th at 3:54pm 2003


Yeah, I suppose inventing math would involve something like "x := 2 + 5 => x = 4" or something.

*edit*

I need to stop doing Ada... [addsig]




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Re: Math gurus UNITE!
Posted by DocRock on Thu Oct 16th at 4:01pm 2003


I knew it would be something obvious like that

...

smiley

heh, you lost me at Our calculus professor

[addsig]





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