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Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Cash Car Star on Thu Jan 20th at 8:58pm 2005

I'm changing my name to Vash Car Star, effective immediately.



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by DrGlass on Fri Jan 21st at 12:12am 2005

Dr.Vash



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Foxpup on Fri Jan 21st at 12:19am 2005

I have an idea which probably won't work. I will try it as soon as I get Source. My idea is... a non-linear SP map!!! This would be extremely difficult, and take a hell of a long time to do, but I reckon it could be done, and it could be pretty cool. What do you think??? [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by satchmo on Fri Jan 21st at 1:01am 2005

It's entirely possible. In fact, most of my single player maps are non-linear, including my latest one, Justice. (http://www.snarkpit.com/maps.php?map=1643)

But one of my first maps ever made (for the original Half-Life) was non-linear as well. (http://www.snarkpit.com/maps.php?map=1325). It's not easy to anticipate all the possible route the player might take, but that's part of the fun and challenge. It's the reason why I wrote an extensive walkthrough for this map (Escape from Black Mesa).

There are always more than one ways to beat these maps, and that adds to their re-play value.

[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by ReNo on Fri Jan 21st at 1:03am 2005

Nice self-pimping there satchmo
[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by satchmo on Fri Jan 21st at 4:58am 2005

? quote:
Nice self-pimping there satchmo


Hey, I live in L.A. Self-pimping is virtually expected. Some people (esp. actors) here have developed it into an art form.
[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Foxpup on Fri Jan 21st at 5:13am 2005

Just to bring this thread back on topic, I'd like to say that a completely new theme needs to be developed if SP maps are to be popular. Such as... has anyone else here studied chaos therory? [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Crono on Fri Jan 21st at 5:29am 2005

I haven't studied it, but I understand what I've heard of it ...

You're not suggesting a ridiculous amount of possibilities from each and every action are you? [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Cassius on Fri Jan 21st at 5:36am 2005

? quoting DrGlass
Dr.Vash

Vashius

(it's better than TwoKnives)





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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Foxpup on Fri Jan 21st at 5:47am 2005

? quote:
You're not suggesting a ridiculous amount of possibilities from each and every action are you?

Yes actually I am. [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Crono on Fri Jan 21st at 6:05am 2005

? quote:
? quote:
You're not suggesting a ridiculous amount of possibilities from each and every action are you?

Yes actually I am.


Then you have no idea how miserably it would fail, no offense.

Not to mention, it would take years of studying to understand that level of AI development.

HL2 (and any game with scripting for that matter) can do this "kind of" no where near the level you're thinking, though.

This wouldn't run on a normal workstation or gaming computer, to be blunt. [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Gorbachev on Fri Jan 21st at 7:25am 2005

Chaos theory is too much for a game. Even "random" functions in most languages technically aren't random. You could have a map with lots of cool possibilities, but eventually it'll get old or predictable without input from other human players.
[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Campaignjunkie on Fri Jan 21st at 7:50am 2005

Honestly, I don't think it would be worth the effort, assuming it would even be possible. It takes an insane amount of work to polish an experience even remotely similar to Half-Life 2. How would one go about formatting that into some sort of "random" generator? There's a reason why HL2 is as linear as it is - scripting and choreographing require it to be that way.
[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Crono on Fri Jan 21st at 8:08am 2005

No, there's a way. It's just you can't do it to the level he's thinking.

You'd use fuzzy logic. It's a type of AI programming "thought process", or so you could call it. It's pretty damn complicated stuff.

Basically, you make a tree of choices. Then each node of that tree goes into sub-tree of sub-choices and so on until you get to the last node in the series (which you use logical statements to decide which to choose in each level) and that is the final "decision, action, reaction? etc.

It's a doable concept, even in a game. The only problem is this is for one aspect, for example, a personality. He's talking about for EVERY SINGLE ELEMENT in the game. THAT will not run (nor would it be anything a development team could realistically finish).

Fuzzy logic is the way to go for this type of thinking. But, yes, NOTHING in computing is random, not even a random number generator. Also, usually if something says "random" when speaking about computers, it generally means the fastest choice.

Complex stuff. What I was saying though, is something that is 10% of this level of complexity could be simulated in something like HL2, but I don't think it'd be worth it.

I'd mark this under "crazy game ideas", along with Kojima's idea to have the game disc RUINED when you die in the game, forcing you to play cautiously. [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Cash Car Star on Fri Jan 21st at 8:08pm 2005

I haven't programmed in quite some time, but I remember trying to create random numbers for dice games in QBasic. If I just used the typical random number command, the same sequence would always occur. If I used the Randomize Timer command before generating random numbers, they would be truly random (or at least I never detected any patterns). I always assumed this worked by taking a random seed at the time the command was entered, which to a computer would be far more precise than a human could ever be, and this time would be based upon when the user pressed a button to run the program. Therefore, the exact time at which it went off would be completely unpredictable. It's kind of like how if you have a precise machine toss a die, you could theoretically calculate all the forces on the die and accurately predict the result. When a human tosses a die, there's no way to maintain such precision with the spin, velocity and altitude and as such, it is completely random.

So basically I've always considered the sole source of true randomness to be results based on human action more precise than can be controlled. Anything that taps into this source can become truely random.





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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Foxpup on Wed Jan 26th at 12:03am 2005

20 years ago, the most popular PC was the Zilog Z80 4.0MHz. Now, PCs are a thousand times more powerful, and 20 years from now, we'll have PCs more powerful than today's supercomputers. My idea can be done. [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Rof on Wed Jan 26th at 12:07am 2005

? quote:
20 years ago, the most popular PC was the Zilog Z80 4.0MHz


Man, 20 years ago my Speccy only had a 3.5 MHz Z80 CPU. I should've overclocked it.
[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Crono on Wed Jan 26th at 1:05am 2005

Fox, no it can't, trust me. Even when regarding new technologies, like the Cell chip, it would still only be simulated.

For your idea to "work" we would need computers with connections that are 100% efficient (meaning, no heat is given off) and all forms of storage would need to be instantaneous. This is impossible, since we can't make a connection that is 100% efficient (which is what, when you get down to it, computers rely on for speed).
This isn't even taking into account all the flaws with every computational design ever. A true simulation of real life, which is what you're talking about, not only will never have proper hardware, but would never be completed on a software level. It's too complex. [addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by BlisTer on Wed Jan 26th at 2:44am 2005

it's not 100% certain that a technology which seems impossible now, will still be impossible in the future. Technology advances exponentially, and many boundaries that were predicted to be unbreakable, have already been surpassed. I'll always remember that my geography teacher told us 7 years ago that fusion would be impossible. Well guess what mr. Maes, they're almost in the construction stage of ITER.

So when you say efficient connections, i think upgraded superconductors. Could be it turns out a whole other technology will be used, but the point is that there is a chance.

[addsig]



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 Re: Dearth of HL2 single player custom maps
Posted by Crono on Wed Jan 26th at 2:47am 2005

Unless we find some new element that conducts better then anything else, I highly doubt it would ever happen. Since, doing what you seem to be suggesting would no longer classify as a computer, really. [addsig]




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