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The ethics of decompiling maps
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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Joe-Bob on Fri Jan 21st at 10:43pm 2005

There are a few things that would concern me.
A mapper would have to guard his pre-release BSP with a lot more care. What if you posted a beta map semi-privately on a forum, and someone got a perfect VMF from it and released it as his own? You really couldn't prove that it was yours to begin with.

On the flip side, there are quite a few legitimate uses for it. I've already fired up my hex editor and looked at several maps to see how they use entities, and the person I learned about the !activator identifier from did this as well.

I suppose that it's your decision. If I were in your shoes, I would probably release it just because it hasn't been done before. However, there isn't really an example of something like this happening in the history of the gaming industry. Like someone said before, there's no way to tell what might become of this. It would probably force mappers to be more protective with their beta maps (or craftily carve their names into it somewhere), but there would be much to learn as well.

It's a very tough decision, I don't envy you.




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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by LittleGetty on Fri Jan 21st at 10:59pm 2005

I say it is a great idea for expereinced mappers or beginners trying to learn something. It could be a HUGE help to people.

There are setbacks like people trying to steal other people's maps, but the idea you had about putting something in it to be incapable of decompiling is a good idea and should work.

I say go for it, it will help a lot of people.





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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Guessmyname on Fri Jan 21st at 11:03pm 2005

I think that in the right hands a decompiler will improve their knowledge of mapping, and help them mapping. Mine are not the right hands, as proven when the only thing I learned from the vmfs of the SP levels is how you can make stars etc whizz past very fast, how to make npcs look at certain points and how to add background music. I still haven't figured out adding sentences because bastard valve uses coreographed sequences, which are pre-programmed, and don't stand a chance in hell of doing what you want them to. On the other hand, I have just realised I could put all my sp maps for my pack (all two of them) into one big one, thus eliminating serveral billion bugs due to dodgy changelevel stuff.
[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Guessmyname on Fri Jan 21st at 11:04pm 2005

I know! Make it so that the mapper can specify what parts of the map he wants decompilable! Then you can learn, but not rip off!

EDIT: On second thoughts, thats probably impossible
[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Fri Jan 21st at 11:04pm 2005

It's good to see that you have ethical concerns about all this, and I'm glad people are seriously considering the ramifications of what a perfect decompiler could do. I'm personally of the mind that a decompiler that works really well and recreates the maps would be an invaluable tool, especially for trying to figure out all of Valve's tricks.

However, as has been previously mentioned (and I've been saying for years), the HL community is full of hardcore idiots who see no problem with stealing others' work. The HL community really is too decentralized and too large for these people to be called out and ostrasized, so there is a very big risk with releasing such a program.

Although I can tell you that noone should be blaming you if and when somebody's map gets decompiled and rereleased. I wouldn't hold it against you if one of my maps was ripped

[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Myrk- on Fri Jan 21st at 11:07pm 2005

As wierd as it may seem, you should only release it to very experienced mappers... people like Leperous or Reno or CJ, that way you know it won't be mis-used but will be of some use to others who will write tutorials. Handing it to lesser trustworthy people will eventually leave it to flood around on the internet. [addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Guessmyname on Fri Jan 21st at 11:12pm 2005

People* who rip maps should be beaten to death with claw hammers

*Arse s**ts
[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by StickFigs on Fri Jan 21st at 11:23pm 2005

Some people found out how to make their map not decompile when a decompiler is used on it.

They hex edited the bsp and added a single characters and it stopped the decompilers from working.

But then again If I ever found out I wouldn't tell anyone because then they could just hex edit it back. Hmm...





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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Jan 21st at 11:55pm 2005

what are the odds, this will eventually be a fully functional decompiler?

people, you guys are taking this way to serious. stolen material, will always be exactly that .. stolen.

consider for one moment, how easy would it be for someone to steal a map for unreal?

answer as easy as loading it in unrealED. yet the habit of stealing is almost unheard of in the unreal community, or it has slipped by me un-noticed at least.

a decompiler whether fully functional, or as good as their predecessors, will make no serious impact on the "availability" of stealing another's works.

for one reason, only the less gifted would consider it. secondly it would be mediately obvious that the less gifted suddenly got better or more skilled.

i say this with feeling, if you can make a fully functional, and errorless decompiler, go for it. i know several mappers who lost their only copy of their own work, through no fault of their own but had no way to recover it, because they only had a .bsp from some friend.

a decompiler, would be a blessing, not a curse.

/ 2 cents.

[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by satchmo on Sat Jan 22nd at 12:21am 2005

? quote:
Handing it to lesser trustworthy people will eventually leave it to flood around on the internet.

As if there isn't already a crap load of bad maps out there. Doesn't matter what happens to it, it'll get abused. So why bother preventing it?

[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Myrk- on Sat Jan 22nd at 12:23am 2005

StickFigs it was just compiling again with -onlyents, but sometimes onlyents made your map have invisible walls appear at random... [addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by StickFigs on Sat Jan 22nd at 12:47am 2005

? quoting Myrk-
StickFigs it was just compiling again with -onlyents, but sometimes onlyents made your map have invisible walls appear at random...

What?





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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Leperous on Sat Jan 22nd at 12:50am 2005

I say go for it and realease this program. So what if some n00b makes some "changez" to your map- most of us don't make maps so that we get lots of money and ?ber-street-cred for doing so. And I think it's wrong to discover some kind of cool entity effect, and hide how it's done from other people- this is NOT our own game we're modifying, after all... If you've made something awesome, share it with others.

? quoting Nickelplate
It is like banning guns because SOME ppl shoot other ppl

Taking someones life is slightly beyond copying someone else's map, but fair point Of course, if a lot of people are getting shot then banning guns is a good way to stop this from happening. If a lot of people start ripping off other people's maps, then perhaps "banning" this program (i.e. introducing something into BSPs that prevent the decompiling process) would be a good idea too, however this is not yet happening!





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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Andrei on Sat Jan 22nd at 12:52am 2005

Even if you don't release it, someone else will release an alternative. Shivers. The decompiling mayhem of HL will move on to HL2. It can't be avoided .

[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by ReNo on Sat Jan 22nd at 1:16am 2005

What decompiling mayhem? Personally, I don't recall any particular problems with people's maps getting ripped off - the HL1 decompiler was extremely ineffective and so it was hard for that to be done.

I've no problem with anybody releasing a decompiler, and if you are the first to do it then it will be a great thing to have in your portfolio if you are interested in a coding career. I say go for it.
[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Nickelplate on Sat Jan 22nd at 1:29am 2005

D00d 1 just was wndrng if u could give me the VmfZ 4 sum mapz i waNnA make some sick Changez too!!! No, I'm just kidding/bored. I agree with Yak that there will always be asshats who're gonna steal your work. There will always be hackers there will always be music and movie-downloaders. <---(some people I know not excluding myself.) I think that if you ever did make that decompiler, it would be a great tool to have. The only maps that will even be effected are the high-profile ones like de_dust and the contest winners. And no one will STEAL them, they will simply make changes and put "R0X0rz D00d ReMiX!" at the end of the map name. Sure, It'll piss me off, but it won't effect me as long as i never joine a server with these "remixes" playing. [addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by DrGlass on Sat Jan 22nd at 4:12am 2005

? quote:
Has any one here seen a decompile that is actually played on servers?

its becaus edecompiles are ussually by ultimate noob mappers, and the recompiles suck any way. SO release it, no recompiled map gets far.


Its not that big of a deal, but I have seen many maps like dust_2.5 etc. I personly dont like the fact that some kid was able to mangle a map and negate the hours of work the real creator put into the map. But that is just my opinion, I just hate seeing those maps and thinking that some where some kid is looking at a list of servers and goes 'w0w my maP is 0n 2 servers!!1!"

? quote:
I say go for it and realease this program. So what if some n00b makes some "changez" to your map- most of us don't make maps so that we get lots of money and ?ber-street-cred for doing so. And I think it's wrong to discover some kind of cool entity effect, and hide how it's done from other people- this is NOT our own game we're modifying, after all... If you've made something awesome, share it with others.


Again, its more that I have a problem with people takeing with out asking. I dont have any problem with giving away source files or anything like that. I love to see people learn from my maps. I just think that if you really want to see how somthing works, send an e-mail to the map maker.


Though, I agree with the gun example. If I were a noob mapper I would want to be trusted with the power to look at others maps. People will cheat and steal, but I guess the power to teach out wieghs the negative.

oh, and Rof, you could add a vertex on the same plane as two others, thus making a line of three. This will make the map uncompilable. It is also very hard to find becuase (if I remeber right) hammer wont find of fix the problem for you.






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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by BlisTer on Sat Jan 22nd at 4:35am 2005

? quoting Rof


In particular, the HL2 compile tools store every original brush and plane that was in the map

Didnt the HL1 compilers did this too? It's the nature of CSG to store the original brushes and remember all the undergone operations. Your suggestion of only keeping the faces would need a B-rep datastructure, which i dont think is implemented in the compilers.

anyway, about the issue of learing-with-decompiler vs stealing-with-decompiler. First of all i think the idea of only the established mappers having them isnt so usefull. Sure there'll be no stealing, but there'll be not much learning either, since the not-established mappers dont have it.

IMO all a decompiler should be able to do is provide "look-but-dont-touch". If someone really wants to remake your map, he has to rebuild it himself from scratch. If the author has no problem with others "remixing" his map, he should just state in the text file that the .vmf can be requested by email.

This way no security keys like prefab brushes should be inserted into the map.

In short: for me its ok if you release it, provided it's 100% look-but-dont-touch (e.g. like you said: shifting all the vertices randomly)

...and from your signature it looks like you released already

[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by Rof on Sat Jan 22nd at 4:54am 2005

? quote:
Didnt the HL1 compilers did this too? It's the nature of CSG to store the original brushes and remember all the undergone operations. Your suggestion of only keeping the faces would need a B-rep datastructure, which i dont think is implemented in the compilers.

Hmm, I didn't know that. I'd gathered the opposite, but I haven't done that much research on HL1 decompilers. I've mostly gleaned the map structure from the odd article on the web and the SDK source files.

? quote:
...and from your signature it looks like you released already

Maybe I wasn't clear, but yes, I've already released (about a week ago) what is essentially a "look but don't touch" type decompiler. The question I was asking was whether I should release the next version, which produces much better brushwork.

DrGlass, good idea about adding a co-planar plane. I'll have to test it, but that might be perfect.
[addsig]



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 Re: The ethics of decompiling maps
Posted by SaintGreg on Sat Jan 22nd at 5:56am 2005

When compiling I believe the coplanar face error gives the exact brush in question so it would be trivial to fix anyways (at least thats how HL did it, haven't created that error yet in HL2)

Nearly all the newer game engines don't use precompiled maps but instead distribute maps in source form. It would be impossible to stop someone from doing maliscious things with the source, because it is necessary to be distributed that way if you want to play it. while this argument may not justify a decompiler on this specific engine, it illustrates the risk you take in releasing a map in the first place. There will always be people out there who can steal your work, whether its a map, music, etc. Yet the world goes on. Don't let the possibility that someone does something wrong with your work stop you.

The power to teach is the greatest power of all. I personally would love to use it to see how "they" did something, or to see how to set up a certain entity, etc.





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