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New anti-terror plans
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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Leperous on Thu Feb 24th at 11:19am 2005

Blair has said that "There is no greater civil liberty than to live free from terrorist attack" in defence of these new plans to let MPs (rather than judges) determine who is a terror suspect and limit their freedoms; do people agree with this statement and have any more general thoughts?

I'll add mine after a few of yours, though this quote by Benjamin Franklin seems relevant: "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"





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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by DrGlass on Thu Feb 24th at 11:29am 2005

No, this is the mis-use of fear. Westeners like us are in the grip of fear. Here in USA have the terror alert color chart. It is always on orange, there may be an attack, some time, some place...

Now goverment is slipping things like this under the radar. The patriot act gives the government a back door into every american's life. If you join a pro islam foundation you are placed on 'the list' if you are on the list the government can freeze funds, tap your house, imprison you indefenatly. I knew a man who was part of a gay rights foundation and he was placed on the list.

That quote says it all. As we allow ourselfs to feel safe by giving up liberty we open a back door for other evils to sneak in through.
[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by KoRnFlakes on Thu Feb 24th at 11:56am 2005

sometimes you just have to wait for at least one bad incident to occur, to prove its going to happen. /me pokes iraq war.... & the "WMD" - I think I would have felt safer waiting for something to happen lol...

its all just electoral crap basically, fair 'uff in some places like the US it works, taking a tough stance and all that, I dont think its doing blair any favours though.
[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by RaPtoR on Thu Feb 24th at 11:57am 2005

? quote:
No, this is the mis-use of fear. Westeners like us are in the grip of fear. Here in USA have the terror alert color chart. It is always on orange, there may be an attack, some time, some place...

Now goverment is slipping things like this under the radar. The patriot act gives the government a back door into every american's life. If you join a pro islam foundation you are placed on 'the list' if you are on the list the government can freeze funds, tap your house, imprison you indefenatly. I knew a man who was part of a gay rights foundation and he was placed on the list.

That quote says it all. As we allow ourselfs to feel safe by giving up liberty we open a back door for other evils to sneak in through.


I agree, the irrational fear makes goverments take fatal decisions and the ppl don't complain becouse their all winded up by fear. "It doesn't matter that i have 4 security cameras in my kitchen, as long as im safe..."
Don't let yourself get blinded by the media's fear!!

Gahhh!!! LIVE FROM NATIONAL THREAT WARNING SYSTEM!!!



[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by KingNic on Thu Feb 24th at 12:23pm 2005

Blair can stay out of my life. Terrorists thrive on fear, Blair is handing the entire nation to them.

I find it incredibly disturbing that the Americans who gloat over everyone else about their "freedoms" and their "rights" are having them stripped daily yet don't care because it's "to fight terror". Uhuh. Scaring people into bending over and taking it up the arse from the government is completely different to having a few bomb threats every now and again.





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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Gwil on Thu Feb 24th at 2:32pm 2005

As far as I understood it, hasn't The House of Lords and Attorney Generals (etc etc) put a stop to the worst of the liberty breaking powers they were employing before.

That's put really badly, but yesterday I was watching the PMQ's live, and it seems the Govt. has had to make a bit of a climb down over their anti terror stance they were pushing before. The length of time they can detain a suspect without trial/"real" charges has been reduced or axed altogether.

TBH, anything that pertains to this won't be an infringement of our civil liberties. This particular "Labour" Government is too soft hearted to detain even *real* criminals for fear of breaking THEIR rights, so I don't think a 5 minute hash out of laws used to detain suspected foreign militants is even going to touch our lives in the slightest. Sometimes it's hard to see what's really IMPORTANT for over the top wooly minded liberalism.

The whole counter arguments smack of the ID card debate and attached fiasco - people cry about losing their civil liberties when in reality they'll only lose them if they're canvassing for Ansar Al Islam or running a militant mosque out of whatsit Green in London.

The whole exercise into anti-terror measures/ID cards smacks of wasting money and time, and scaremongering voters with a deep rooted fear of Islam in turning out to vote. The likelihood of an attack on Britain is minimal considering we're a hotbed for fund raising activities and distribution of radical "jihad" ideas throughout Europe.

We should place more trust in our security services, they managed to thwart most of the IRA attacks and get hold of the more prolific members and have bucketloads more experience than similar organisations in the USA. For me, the threat of terrorism just doesn't wash. It's Blair taking the official lapdog line to appease Bush and use fear to win himself another term in totalitarianesque power.

Bleh, incoherent ramble but I think you see what i'm driving at. Oh, and agreed - it shouldn't an MP's decision (ie Charles Clarke - have you seen his ears?!) to detain people if they decide to go ahead with the new rules.

The principle is good (immediate decision rather than attempt the chocked courts), but these dealings should be left to MI5/Mi6/other spooks. They know what to do, not the stuffed suit rhetoric machine of Blair and his c**kend cronies.

(Oh, for your answer - Yes, I agree with curtailing peoples freedoms if theyre a suspected terrorist. Same goes for the social underclasses, they should all be interned and put into forced labour or something equally fitting for their apparent lack of respect for the law and social responsibility)

Being hard line is sometimes necessary. [addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Orpheus on Thu Feb 24th at 2:38pm 2005

i dunno if this is off topic or not.

as far as us little people are concerned, the only noticeable difference between "before the trade towers" and "after" is the prices of domestic products such as petrol and foods.

this whole business about terrorism only effect my pocketbook, my life in general is absolutely the same as it was prior to the TT incident.

if i didn't know better, i would swear it was just a ploy to squeeze more from my wallet.

[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Andrei on Thu Feb 24th at 2:53pm 2005

Sounds like a crufew to me. There was some tension here aswell when the posibility of an NBC weapon to be detonated here was brought to public attention. Pretty soon, they'll do something like that over here too.
[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Leperous on Thu Feb 24th at 4:26pm 2005

But Gwil, you don't seem to justify why it should be down to MPs who's arrested without trial.

Anyway, I do not see how these rules will help in anyway. If the Government is aware that someone is up to something, they should do what they've had to do for the last thousand years- gather the evidence, and then arrest them before they do something based on that evidence. Fine, if we need 'closed courts' or to be able to use phone taps in trials, go for it, but I think putting this in the hands of MPs is wrong. This, along with ID cards, will not prevent terrorism in any kind of way and is simply short-sighted and stupid (typical of the Labour government)





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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Gwil on Thu Feb 24th at 4:32pm 2005

I don't think it should be, that's why It should realistically be down to a dedicated panel (not the full Crown Court) or undercover "police" organisation.

In all honesty I don't think issues like this should be aired in public TBH - as it incites fear for normal people, and good excuses for racists to attack Asians, or terrorists to attack us. This view however doesn't fit into democratic ideas, and "accountability" (read - culture of passing the buck/blaming someone/thing else).

MP's shouldn't be allowed anywhere near decisions like that - ESPECIALLY based on the fact that the current guy doing it (Home Secretary) was just a few months ago, Education Secretary. That touches on a bigger issue of people being put in positions theyre unqualified for/out of touch with reality, but MP's should most definately NOT be allowed to take the decision.

Freedom, free speech and liberty are IMPORTANT elements of society, but when they cause problems like this to become choked up in a world of bureacracy, panels, boards, review boards, clearance officers etc etc, then we are looking at new problems.

Can't see the woods for red tape. Democracy and freedom is far from infallible for creating an efficient and effective society and government. [addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Gwil on Thu Feb 24th at 4:34pm 2005

It's the culture of politics though Lep, sadly - we have stagnated with change because knee jerk reactions like this, along with the attitude of "SOCIAL PROBLEM SIR, SHALL WE THROW MONEY AT IT?!" just means that problems and issues are left to fester and get worse, because people are afraid of change, or the ramifications of implementing bold new ideas into our country, our world.

it's little more than rhetoric for the sake of being seen to be doing something, and catching the average Joe who doesn't really understand how society works but still bumbles on.

Playing on fear and racism to extend their worthless terms in Government is dirty tricks indeed.. [addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Feb 24th at 4:59pm 2005

? quoting Gwil
It's the culture of politics though Lep, sadly - we have stagnated with change because knee jerk reactions like this, along with the attitude of "SOCIAL PROBLEM SIR, SHALL WE THROW MONEY AT IT?!" just means that problems and issues are left to fester and get worse, because people are afraid of change, or the ramifications of implementing bold new ideas into our country, our world.

it's little more than rhetoric for the sake of being seen to be doing something, and catching the average Joe who doesn't really understand how society works but still bumbles on.

Playing on fear and racism to extend their worthless terms in Government is dirty tricks indeed..

i agree. It's like putting a band-aid on a malignant tumor.
+orph, I agree. in my town gas prices rose to $3.50 the day of the TT incident.

[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by TeamWolfguard on Thu Feb 24th at 5:36pm 2005

If you would just let the goverment extract the info needed and then let them spend 28 cents on everyone at gitmo with out crying about the rights the prisoners have under the constitution or geneva convention...

(they are protected by neither)

... some of this crap would just go away.

(guess who i voted for)




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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by omegaslayer on Thu Feb 24th at 5:44pm 2005

After the 9-11 attack americans relized that they were not as secure as they thought they were. This is the perfect time for any government to take power. I don't agree with the patriot act at all. If anyone has seen the will smith movie about the government being after him then you know what im talking about (although the senario is highly unlikely). The question is who really has the right to choose who is a potential terrorist or not? The answer is simple: No one. The real way to tell is like lep said:

? quote:
they should do what they've had to do for the last thousand years- gather the evidence, and then arrest them before they do something based on that evidence.

They should gather evidence without invading peoples lives, rather than basing that someone is a potential terrorist based on what group they are in.

Ahh yes the terror alert system, it seems like it should always be on red due to the fact that our american government is sticking their noses in everyones business (eg: the world police "Team America". It is even projected that one day the government will have glass in everyones houses that changes color when a terrorist attack takes place.....what exactly will we do when we see the red? turn on the TV and watch a bunch of clueless reporters report that a car bomb blew up somewhere (its not like we wont do that already ??), or that a building is on fire....ohhh no stay away....well duh!!

? quote:
in my town gas prices rose to $3.50 the day of the TT incident.

shesh when gas prices go above 2.00 here people moan and groan

[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by DrGlass on Thu Feb 24th at 7:41pm 2005

I think the real crime is the use of these new laws to hurt the very people who vote for them. The patriot act is being used to squelch any group the government is afraid of. Minority groups are watched and punished. Its not only Muslim groups either, like I said before, Gay rights, black rights, etc. They all fall under the governments microscope.

I think that the top rung of society fears the very people they are ment to protect with these bills. Actions like this will make people think twice about supporting gays or muslims. I dont think there is any excuse for placing some one from the gay rights movment on a suspected terrorist list...


[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by RaPtoR on Thu Feb 24th at 7:56pm 2005

? quote:

Ahh yes the terror alert system, it seems like it should always be on red due to the fact that our american government is sticking their noses in everyones business (eg: the world police "Team America". It is even projected that one day the government will have glass in everyones houses that changes color when a terrorist attack takes place.....what exactly will we do when we see the red? turn on the TV and watch a bunch of clueless reporters report that a car bomb blew up somewhere (its not like we wont do that already ??), or that a building is on fire....ohhh no stay away....well duh!!


Well, if that's how you want it...


[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by DrGlass on Fri Feb 25th at 9:33am 2005

? quote:

? quote:

Ahh yes the terror alert system, it seems like it should always be on red due to the fact that our american government is sticking their noses in everyones business (eg: the world police "Team America". It is even projected that one day the government will have glass in everyones houses that changes color when a terrorist attack takes place.....what exactly will we do when we see the red? turn on the TV and watch a bunch of clueless reporters report that a car bomb blew up somewhere (its not like we wont do that already ??), or that a building is on fire....ohhh no stay away....well duh!!


Well, if that's how you want it...

[pic]



Oh I want it...

[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Cassius on Fri Feb 25th at 9:49am 2005

? quoting DrGlass
Westeners like us are in the grip of fear.

The general public is afraid of a terrorist attack; liberals are afraid of being afraid. Michael Moore paints a nightmare vision of current affairs, and liberals love it, just as they criticize Americans for living in the 'culture of fear' that Moore talks about.





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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by DrGlass on Fri Feb 25th at 10:09am 2005

There have been 4 major terror attacks in the past 15 years (correct me if I'm wrong) One was commited by a man who lived in the woods. Two were on the same target (early 90's and 2001 attack on the WTC).

For the past 3 years we have been told that an attack will happen some where at some time (ok I'll admit that is pushing it). The public is being over loaded with information. We should let law enforcment do its job like it has been doing for the past however many years.

I think there is a problem with fear when small towns demand the same kind of terror pervention money as big cities like New York and Chicago.

And as much as I hate Moore, he has very good points about fear in the media. Like how murders have gone down in the past 10 years while reporting of murders has gone up.
[addsig]



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 Re: New anti-terror plans
Posted by Orpheus on Fri Feb 25th at 10:55am 2005

funny. terrorist attacks have been happening for eons. only now has it drifted into the 1st world areas enough to be note worthy.

how come no one got all upset when it was happening in Zimbabwe?

anywho's.. i am tired of all this "terror this, and terror that.." :/

[addsig]




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