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DNRs are suicide?
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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Spartan on Sat Mar 19th at 3:37am 2005

In case you don't know what a DNR is its a sort of contract that a person can have made for themselves incase they are seriously injured to the point where they must be supported by machines to live. DNR stands for "do not resusicate". Anyways the point of this topic is whether or not you think a person having themselves a DNR is any different than a person commiting suicide? I'm sure this is a touchy topic for some but I'd like to get your guy's opinions. [addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 19th at 3:39am 2005

DNR is not the same. supposedly DNR's are signed by sane people, suicidal people hardly qualify as sane :/ [addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by satchmo on Sat Mar 19th at 3:40am 2005

? quote:
do not resesitate

First of all, spell the main focus of the topic correctly.

But no, I don't consider it suicide. It's a passive act instead of an active one. In many cases, DNR is the right (and merciful) thing to do.

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 19th at 3:43am 2005

I also consider "assisted suicide" a misnomer. it signifies mental instability IMO..

assisted euthanasia perhaps would be better. i dunno but any word that has suicide attached cannot be a good thing.

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Spartan on Sat Mar 19th at 4:10am 2005

? quoting satchmo

? quote:
do not resesitate

First of all, spell the main focus of the topic correctly.

But no, I don't consider it suicide. It's a passive act instead of an active one. In many cases, DNR is the right (and merciful) thing to do.

Ok fixed, sorry.

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Mephs on Sat Mar 19th at 10:06am 2005

A person has as much right to a dignified death as a life. If you take that away from them for to pander to the religious right in (as the government attempted to do in the case of Mrs Schiavo) then there is a serious chance of prolonging human misery. I know that this particular case was not black and white, and there have been claims that the husband wanted to hasten her death (and even claiming that he strangled her when she collapsed).

I believe in all cases where a person is in left a state like Mrs Schiavo with no signs of improvement should be taken off all life support after one year (or whatever the maximum length of time the law can charge someone of murder following death from an assault).

There is noone in my family that would want to be kept on a life support machine if they were reduced to that level (myself included) and I would let no government on earth stop them from dying with dignity.

If you consider the advances of medical science, in a few years existing as a brain in a jam jar like in b-movies might be possible, and there is no way I would have that happen to me, or anyone else I care for. I'm surprised they aren't lobbying to have people exhumed from their graves and resusicated. [addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by thursday- on Sat Mar 19th at 10:46am 2005

? quote:
I'm surprised they aren't lobbying to have people exhumed from their graves and resusicated.


http://science.howstuffworks.com/cryonics.htm
They won't even allow them to have a grave.
[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Leperous on Sat Mar 19th at 11:04am 2005

There is a fine line since people can make miraculous recoveries, but even from a religious point of view, if they'd be dead without the life support then they should be allowed to die; as Mephs said, you have the right to die if you're given the right to live.



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 19th at 11:08am 2005

? quoting Leperous
There is a fine line since people can make miraculous recoveries, but even from a religious point of view, if they'd be dead without the life support then they should be allowed to die; as Mephs said, you have the right to die if you're given the right to live.

i agree 100% but have issues on "how" the death happens.

in Florida right now, they are planning on starving a patient to death in a form of assisted death.

this stinks. we have so many painless ways to let someone die, to actually starve them into it is abhorrent in a way i cannot even mention it without getting worked up :/

i have standing instructions with my wife/family. i am not to just waste away and die. if its positive "pull the plug"

/me goes and calms down.. this Florida thing always makes me wanna throttle that husband.

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Spartan on Sat Mar 19th at 4:30pm 2005

? quoting Orpheus
? quoting Leperous
There is a fine line since people can make miraculous recoveries, but even from a religious point of view, if they'd be dead without the life support then they should be allowed to die; as Mephs said, you have the right to die if you're given the right to live.

i agree 100% but have issues on "how" the death happens.

in Florida right now, they are planning on starving a patient to death in a form of assisted death.

this stinks. we have so many painless ways to let someone die, to actually starve them into it is abhorrent in a way i cannot even mention it without getting worked up :/

i have standing instructions with my wife/family. i am not to just waste away and die. if its positive "pull the plug"

/me goes and calms down.. this Florida thing always makes me wanna throttle that husband.

Orph I can see you didn't get the whole story. The woman has been braindead for a few years know, she's only been alive because a machine. To see a person who is braindead is a very sad thing to witness. Also out the of years that she has been braindead shes made no improvements at all. I agree with the husband in letting her die. Removing the feeding tube is just the way they do it. If this was many years early when our medical technology wasn't as advanced she would be dead right now.

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Andrei on Sat Mar 19th at 4:38pm 2005

I'd rather die than live for the rest of my days tied to an oxygen tube. However I think a DNR isn't such a good idea. Who knows? You make such a contract thinking the same way I do, and get hit by a car and end-up in a morgue. Maybe you wouldn't have needed to rely on machines to live after resuscitation after all, and you wasted your life.
[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Spartan on Sat Mar 19th at 4:46pm 2005

Some people do make recoveries. My mom's a nurse and she's has worked at many differnt location in a our city. I remember she had one patient at her hospital that was hit by a beer truck while skateboarding (the irony is he was skipping school to go buy some beer). He was basically braindead but a few months after that he started to recover very slowly. After about 2 years he was up to the point of having a 7th grade education. He won't be fully recrovered ever but atleast he's not hanging onto life through a feeding tube. He had to literally relearn everything over again. Now as for Terry she has made no recovery at all over the years that she has been braindead. [addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Andrei on Sat Mar 19th at 4:49pm 2005

Good thing he didn't have a DNR. You see? That's what I was talking about : you never know.
[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 19th at 6:44pm 2005

spartan, i read/heard the whole story. the point is, if the machine is genuinely sustaining her life, she would die almost upon the moment the switch is turned off. this is not the case however, the woman survived days last time she was not allowed to eat.

do not misunderstand, she NEEDS to be allowed to die, but the methodology is all wrong when starvation is the killing mechanism.

perhaps it was you whom didn't hear the whole story, or perhaps you just misunderstood that they were starving here into dying.

IMO, the husband wants a new woman, and cannot as long as this one is hanging around. i could be wrong about the motives, but i am damned sure that euthanizing by deprivation of nutrition is NOT the answer.

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by DrGlass on Sat Mar 19th at 7:22pm 2005

I think this all boils down to people or groups of people thinking they are some how entitled to make choices for others.

I wouldn't want a DNR, but I would want my loved ones to be able to let me go if I had no chance to recover. I dont think some polition or religious fanatic (I beleve anyone who forces their views on others like this is a fanatic) telling the people who know me best what is best for me.

Granted I dont know much about this topic, but I dont think any one has the right to tell me whats best for me. Unless they have been educated to do so.

Lets take this out of context for a second. I eat beef, I love beef its great! Other people dont eat beef, they hate beef. Would it be right of them to tell me that I shouldn't eat beef, then go and try and pass a law against eating beef.

thats how I veiw it anyways
[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Myrk- on Sat Mar 19th at 7:34pm 2005

Can't be arsed to read everyone elses response, so here goes-

Suidcide is something you choose when your alive.

DNR "suicide" is done because you arn't alive, or at least your not capable of living, so if any god believing people are here- I don't think you'll go to hell for commiting suicide...

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Leperous on Sat Mar 19th at 7:38pm 2005

DrGlass, replace the word "eat beef" with "murder" in the above, and tell me you think it's silly that people pass a law stopping you from wanton death sprees. People have different 'priorities' for these sorts of things.





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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Spartan on Sat Mar 19th at 7:55pm 2005

? quoting Orpheus
spartan, i read/heard the whole story. the point is, if the machine is genuinely sustaining her life, she would die almost upon the moment the switch is turned off. this is not the case however, the woman survived days last time she was not allowed to eat.

do not misunderstand, she NEEDS to be allowed to die, but the methodology is all wrong when starvation is the killing mechanism.

perhaps it was you whom didn't hear the whole story, or perhaps you just misunderstood that they were starving here into dying.

IMO, the husband wants a new woman, and cannot as long as this one is hanging around. i could be wrong about the motives, but i am damned sure that euthanizing by deprivation of nutrition is NOT the answer.

I heard the whole story and I know that it has taken several days for her to die. But the fact is we don't even know if she can feel or understand the pain of starvation. Also I think getting mad at the husband is a bit harsh. What would you do if you were in his position?

[addsig]



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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by DrFrag on Sat Mar 19th at 8:08pm 2005

? quoting Leperous
DrGlass, replace the word "eat beef" with "murder" in the above, and tell me you think it's silly that people pass a law stopping you from wanton death sprees. People have different 'priorities' for these sorts of things.

Replace "people pass a law" with "beef cattle pass a law" and tell me that's not silly. In other words, bad analogy. I daresay DrGlass is opposed to murder, too.





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 Re: DNRs are suicide?
Posted by Orpheus on Sat Mar 19th at 8:09pm 2005

? quoting Spartan 34

I heard the whole story and I know that it has taken several days for her to die. But the fact is we don't even know if she can feel or understand the pain of starvation. Also I think getting mad at the husband is a bit harsh. What would you do if you were in his position?

why do you persist in overlooking the method of ending the life?

there are perfectly acceptable methods of ending one during euthanasia. starvation is not an acceptable practice. who care if she can feel, its inhumane. its also not something i would do to a "supposed" loved one.

if the law clearly allows them to assist, then it should cover methods that are humane. s**t bud, most of us wouldn't starve a dog, let alone a wife.

they already proved last time that starving her will take an inordinately long amount of time. its not like she is burning a s**t load of calories asleep.

stop overlooking "how" they plan on killing this woman. why is irrelevant since we both agree that she needs to die.

[addsig]




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