sorry double post.
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Thu Apr 21st at 3:37pm 2005
Posted by Natus on Thu Apr 21st at 3:37pm 2005
i made a concept a few days ago, didnt start on it yet though, some
kind of c17 street map, a bit like overwatch but with more underground
and indoor stuff, and combine stuff
[addsig]
[addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Andrei on Thu Apr 21st at 4:24pm 2005
Posted by Andrei on Thu Apr 21st at 4:24pm 2005
I never make any concept art and seldom use photographs or pictures of things when mapping; I do it from the head.
[addsig]
[addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by rival on Thu Apr 21st at 4:30pm 2005
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Posted by rival on Thu Apr 21st at 4:30pm 2005
i just get inspired from something i see when im out and then go back and make it sp i find it really hard to make a full map i started one a week ago but now i just cant be bothered with it at the time i thought it was great but now i just think its crap
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by habboi on Thu Apr 21st at 4:46pm 2005
Posted by habboi on Thu Apr 21st at 4:46pm 2005
I usually get ideas from the World around us.
I have had some good ideas but from experience, I have never fully implemented these ideas because I know in heart that I will end up giving up on them due to lazyness and not enough enthusiasm. [addsig]
I have had some good ideas but from experience, I have never fully implemented these ideas because I know in heart that I will end up giving up on them due to lazyness and not enough enthusiasm. [addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by TheBelfig on Mon Apr 25th at 3:55am 2005
Posted by TheBelfig on Mon Apr 25th at 3:55am 2005
I've had problems like that. I will start a map, then spend a year adding finishing toutches. I think that if I'm working on a map that I want to be good, it is hard to let it go. I think the hardest part is when to say enough is enough and release it.
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Campaignjunkie on Mon Apr 25th at 4:20am 2005
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Posted by Campaignjunkie on Mon Apr 25th at 4:20am 2005
I agree.
I've only finished 2 maps in my entire "mapping career" (if you want to call it that). And those releases were because of deadlines. Maps are never really finished. You just choose a time, package it up, and stop. But it's also important not to pressure yourself too much - mapping is a hobby, you should be enjoying yourself.
[addsig]
I've only finished 2 maps in my entire "mapping career" (if you want to call it that). And those releases were because of deadlines. Maps are never really finished. You just choose a time, package it up, and stop. But it's also important not to pressure yourself too much - mapping is a hobby, you should be enjoying yourself.
[addsig]
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Crono on Mon Apr 25th at 6:23am 2005
To be honest, this is due to lousy planning. If you don't think anything out it becomes very obscure and almost impossible to create anything decent.
Even having a simple list will help, but if you want to look at it more closely:
There's an apparent cycle in almost all hobbies that have this type of process, or any development for that matter; what's important in EVERY development is working the idea to death in the earliest stage to limit the actual creation time (and to make your ideas concrete). Granted, this is a "professional" point of view, but it should help in almost guaranteeing completion of a decent map(novel/screenplay/program/etc).
I'd suggest looking at the development cycle for software development (taking that it's the closest relating cycle I can think of, it's more adaptable to mapping then anything else) I don't suggest looking at it from an architectural standpoint because that process is ridiculously long and it honestly isn't needed when doing this. However, you'd be able to create something amazing doing it this way.
The cycle is fairly simple:
Requirements
Specifications
Coding
Testing
Maintenance
That for mapping can be translated to:
Requirements (Outline)
Specifications (Layout/Design)
Map
Test
Maintenance
There are certain versions of the cycle in which the mapping and testing are inter-mingled until there's final testing, which you would call beta-testing (after doing an initial alpha on your own, of course)
More Clarification (stop reading if you don't care):
Create an outline of the rough ideas you have for your map, in words. Like themes you want throughout the map (i.e. rounded corners, space station, rusty metal, etc.) Some other outlines you'll want to make is layout (connectivity) and game-play style (i.e. vertical) and then think of situations that it would play well in. Another thing you may want to start planning here are entities and interactivity.
Take the outline you created and start drawing out "rooms". Paper is a good choice for this stage, nothing super detailed of course, but a very nice guide. By the time you finish this step you'll end up having the entire conceptualization for your map (until you come up with something new.)
Map like crazy. Just start out by creating, in your editor, what you've created on paper and in your head. Then start going through and adding more detail to each "room". You'll probably come up with more ideas here, whatever you change here go and make changes in the requirements step and make a note of it in the specifications. That way, when you pick the map up again in four months you'll know what the hell you were thinking.
This is the final testing (seeing how something looks in game is part of the mapping stage), which of course, is best done on servers.
I think you can figure out the rest.
But, if you really think about it, this same process is used for most things, at least professionally. (Writing a novel usually follows this type of process. Obviously, planning software follows it, but it is more strict.)
Sorry for the drawn out post. I hope it helps though. [addsig]
Posted by Crono on Mon Apr 25th at 6:23am 2005
? quote:
I've had problems like that. I will start a map, then spend a year adding finishing toutches. I think that if I'm working on a map that I want to be good, it is hard to let it go. I think the hardest part is when to say enough is enough and release it.
To be honest, this is due to lousy planning. If you don't think anything out it becomes very obscure and almost impossible to create anything decent.
Even having a simple list will help, but if you want to look at it more closely:
There's an apparent cycle in almost all hobbies that have this type of process, or any development for that matter; what's important in EVERY development is working the idea to death in the earliest stage to limit the actual creation time (and to make your ideas concrete). Granted, this is a "professional" point of view, but it should help in almost guaranteeing completion of a decent map(novel/screenplay/program/etc).
I'd suggest looking at the development cycle for software development (taking that it's the closest relating cycle I can think of, it's more adaptable to mapping then anything else) I don't suggest looking at it from an architectural standpoint because that process is ridiculously long and it honestly isn't needed when doing this. However, you'd be able to create something amazing doing it this way.
The cycle is fairly simple:
Requirements
Specifications
Coding
Testing
Maintenance
That for mapping can be translated to:
Requirements (Outline)
Specifications (Layout/Design)
Map
Test
Maintenance
There are certain versions of the cycle in which the mapping and testing are inter-mingled until there's final testing, which you would call beta-testing (after doing an initial alpha on your own, of course)
More Clarification (stop reading if you don't care):
Create an outline of the rough ideas you have for your map, in words. Like themes you want throughout the map (i.e. rounded corners, space station, rusty metal, etc.) Some other outlines you'll want to make is layout (connectivity) and game-play style (i.e. vertical) and then think of situations that it would play well in. Another thing you may want to start planning here are entities and interactivity.
Take the outline you created and start drawing out "rooms". Paper is a good choice for this stage, nothing super detailed of course, but a very nice guide. By the time you finish this step you'll end up having the entire conceptualization for your map (until you come up with something new.)
Map like crazy. Just start out by creating, in your editor, what you've created on paper and in your head. Then start going through and adding more detail to each "room". You'll probably come up with more ideas here, whatever you change here go and make changes in the requirements step and make a note of it in the specifications. That way, when you pick the map up again in four months you'll know what the hell you were thinking.
This is the final testing (seeing how something looks in game is part of the mapping stage), which of course, is best done on servers.
I think you can figure out the rest.
But, if you really think about it, this same process is used for most things, at least professionally. (Writing a novel usually follows this type of process. Obviously, planning software follows it, but it is more strict.)
Sorry for the drawn out post. I hope it helps though. [addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Apr 25th at 7:25am 2005
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Apr 25th at 7:25am 2005
Using software development cycles for mapping does not work very well in my experience. When I do this my maps turn out bland and I get bored and unhappy with the map quickly. I think this is because mapping is an creative/artistic process which is more akin to painting or writing than software development or analytic problem solving. I have found that the best strategy is the following:
1: Get an idea - through random insight, or pictures, or brainstorming, or whatever.
2: Start mapping one area, and really delve in to find out the style you want.
3: One idea will lead to another, and as that happens just go with it and make new areas. Don't worry about how it will all fit together, just concentrate on getting the ideas from your head into the map.
4: Once you have a decent amount of stuff made, take a step back and objectively look at the map as a whole. Is the gameplay flow right? Do the areas go well with each other? Come up with a plan for putting it all together.
5: Implement the plan you came up with in (4). This will probably involve massive remaking, editing, and moving stuff around. Don't be afraid though, usually making stuff a second time is a lot easier than the first and on the whole I think its better than trying to be perfect the first time. If you think about the time you spend mapping, only a small proportion of it is actually laying down brushes - most of it is thinking of what you are going to do and getting ideas, and you have already done this with steps 1-4.
--Your map will now be in alpha stage--
6: Bug Test. Run around your map and take screenshots of everything that is bad. Fix. Recompile. Repeat.
--Your map will now be in beta stage--
7: Post on forums for critiques. Fix. Recompile. Repeat.
8: Play test. Fix layout even if it means massive remaking/moving stuff around.
9: Fix new bugs you made. Goto 7.
10: Release the map!
Some people will swear by the planning method of drawing everything out and planning everything before placing a single brush. To me that is equivalent to an artist saying "ok, I'm going make a painting of a house, and in the background there will be a mountain, and in the window there will be a flowerpot, and the lighting will be smooth, and the roof will slope at an angle of 20 degrees..." before even picking up the paintbrush. And you know what, the painter might paint all of that perfectly to spec, but in the end his painting will be dull. [addsig]
1: Get an idea - through random insight, or pictures, or brainstorming, or whatever.
2: Start mapping one area, and really delve in to find out the style you want.
3: One idea will lead to another, and as that happens just go with it and make new areas. Don't worry about how it will all fit together, just concentrate on getting the ideas from your head into the map.
4: Once you have a decent amount of stuff made, take a step back and objectively look at the map as a whole. Is the gameplay flow right? Do the areas go well with each other? Come up with a plan for putting it all together.
5: Implement the plan you came up with in (4). This will probably involve massive remaking, editing, and moving stuff around. Don't be afraid though, usually making stuff a second time is a lot easier than the first and on the whole I think its better than trying to be perfect the first time. If you think about the time you spend mapping, only a small proportion of it is actually laying down brushes - most of it is thinking of what you are going to do and getting ideas, and you have already done this with steps 1-4.
--Your map will now be in alpha stage--
6: Bug Test. Run around your map and take screenshots of everything that is bad. Fix. Recompile. Repeat.
--Your map will now be in beta stage--
7: Post on forums for critiques. Fix. Recompile. Repeat.
8: Play test. Fix layout even if it means massive remaking/moving stuff around.
9: Fix new bugs you made. Goto 7.
10: Release the map!
Some people will swear by the planning method of drawing everything out and planning everything before placing a single brush. To me that is equivalent to an artist saying "ok, I'm going make a painting of a house, and in the background there will be a mountain, and in the window there will be a flowerpot, and the lighting will be smooth, and the roof will slope at an angle of 20 degrees..." before even picking up the paintbrush. And you know what, the painter might paint all of that perfectly to spec, but in the end his painting will be dull. [addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Cassius on Mon Apr 25th at 7:35am 2005
Posted by Cassius on Mon Apr 25th at 7:35am 2005
The Cassius Mapping System
1. Create a badass texture, preferably by accident, preferably a terrain texture.
2. Open up Worldcraft. This is tricky.
3. Make some awesome-looking, low-poly terrain.
4. Go to sleep.
5. Wake up the next day.
6. Look at your work with disgust.
7. Delete map file.
8. Open up Photoshop and start trying to make a badass texture.
9. Repeat.
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Leperous on Mon Apr 25th at 9:00am 2005
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Posted by Leperous on Mon Apr 25th at 9:00am 2005
? quoting mazemaster
5: Implement the plan you came up with in (4). This will probably involve massive remaking, editing, and moving stuff around. Don't be afraid though, usually making stuff a second time is a lot easier than the first and on the whole I think its better than trying to be perfect the first time. If you think about the time you spend mapping, only a small proportion of it is actually laying down brushes - most of it is thinking of what you are going to do and getting ideas, and you have already done this with steps 1-4.
I think this is the key step- if you've got some funky areas built, then you've got to be willing to sort out the layout or design of the rest of the level- even if it means deleting it all...
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 10:26am 2005
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Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 10:26am 2005
success can be measured in only one way. sadly.
success is the amount of times a map is played.
of course, most of us truly do not believe this and measure our success based on our own popularity within our group community, but in the back of our minds we do think about it being played frequently.
another sad note is, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. the killbox is the most played map type out there per capita, so all the planning and drafting and scrapping and rebuilding in the world is NOT going to change the simple fact.. PLAYERS ARE BASICALLY STUPID!
that said, this is my take on the subject. you can think you have the most awesome map ever but if you do not get reliable feedback, you will almost always miss the mark. IMO, reliable feedback is the most crucial part of any maps creation. you can be the most imaginative person in the world, but you will still miss things. conversely, you can be the most nitpickin perfectionist in the world and still be just as blind as anyone.
feedback is the key to success.. use it in EVERY STEP of your maps creation. do NOT wait until you have a beta, do not wait till you have things set in STONE.. get it from day one and you are guaranteed a map that will succeed. if you wait to long, you are more apt to disregard some advice in favor of saving time, or WORSE, you will scrap a map because someone pointed out belatedly that you messed up horribly, and in your disgust scrap it.
FEEDBACK.. the most important part of your map.
[addsig]Orpheus
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 10:53am 2005
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 10:53am 2005
hmm
maybe youre right orph, the first map i made went pretty well, and me and Sluip (the dude from IRC) was testing it all the time, and we had plenty of fun blowing ourselves up with barrels and shooting cannisters at people.
[addsig]
maybe youre right orph, the first map i made went pretty well, and me and Sluip (the dude from IRC) was testing it all the time, and we had plenty of fun blowing ourselves up with barrels and shooting cannisters at people.
[addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 1:49pm 2005
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Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 1:49pm 2005
? quoting NatUS
hmm
maybe youre right orph,
maybe youre right orph,
*slaps forehead*
silly me, i usually don't know anything..
of course I'm right butthole. i would not have typed it if i weren't :P
the hardest thing about being right is, sometimes there is more than one right, and its very hard to convince people that there is.
[addsig]Orpheus
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 2:10pm 2005
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 2:10pm 2005
the worst thing ever, is when two people who both think that theyre
right start yelling at each other like "im right and youre wrong!!!"
"NO, im right and YOU are wrong!!!"
[addsig]
[addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by French Toast on Mon Apr 25th at 2:11pm 2005
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Posted by French Toast on Mon Apr 25th at 2:11pm 2005
Yar.
[addsig]
French Toast
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Apr 25th at 4:28pm 2005
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Apr 25th at 4:28pm 2005
I'm more inclined to agree with Crono then Mazemaster on this
one. Even though I'm not the most experienced mapper, and haven't
released a complete map, learning from the projects I've started and
abandoned... I've come to the conclusion that while it may be nice to
have a really well fleshed out area, if you only put all your energy
into one section it will be hard to keep it up and see a project to
completion. I do a lot of drawing, and it just makes sense to do
rough sketches in the beginning before working for more and more
detail. While this delays gratification (you won't have
impressive screenshots to share right away) I think in the end you'll
have something that plays better.
The only hard thing about Crono's method of sketching things out on paper is that I have a difficult time sketching out a three dimensional environment. Especially along the Z-axis.
I agree with you Orpheus. I think feedback, early and often, can be the real impetus behind a map. I can't wait for this summer when I can start creating and sharing.
[addsig]
The only hard thing about Crono's method of sketching things out on paper is that I have a difficult time sketching out a three dimensional environment. Especially along the Z-axis.
I agree with you Orpheus. I think feedback, early and often, can be the real impetus behind a map. I can't wait for this summer when I can start creating and sharing.
[addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Crono on Mon Apr 25th at 6:43pm 2005
Posted by Crono on Mon Apr 25th at 6:43pm 2005
Use graph paper and a ruler and possibly some perspective. All are very easy.
Maze, you may not realize it, but when you're painting, writing, etc (as you mentioned) you are following that process, you just do it implicitly, it's the first logical thing you think of ... that is, if you're professional about it. (Ever wonder why it takes amature artists to take so long to complete things?)
Now, I'm not saying time is the ultimate factor or anything, but that's the reason why most people don't finish things they start: too much time has passed. But, I barely outlined the cycle. Those are the highest level steps. If you look at the cycle for you self, I'm sure you'd agree. (Less work)
The main difference from what you said is that you're waiting until you're basically done with the map to make flow changes ... which means you'll most likely have to scrap the entire thing and start over with a better idea of what you want. The development cycle takes care of that in the very beginning (basically because it's the most important step).
If you were wondering, most painters do that. They usually take photographs and "appropriate" them to their painting (they draw rough sketches before that too, in the end there's three "pieces of art"). It's the most efficient way and it already takes somewhere around 30 hours to complete a painting like that, it would take years other ways. Does this "destroy" the artist's experience with the painting? No. Why? Because it's still their creation, the only difference is they're not doing it on the spur of the moment.
Writing is the same way. In several aspects so is mapping.
But, look, I just gave an almost guaranteed method to ensure a map is completed, I'm not telling anyone to adopt it ... [addsig]
Maze, you may not realize it, but when you're painting, writing, etc (as you mentioned) you are following that process, you just do it implicitly, it's the first logical thing you think of ... that is, if you're professional about it. (Ever wonder why it takes amature artists to take so long to complete things?)
Now, I'm not saying time is the ultimate factor or anything, but that's the reason why most people don't finish things they start: too much time has passed. But, I barely outlined the cycle. Those are the highest level steps. If you look at the cycle for you self, I'm sure you'd agree. (Less work)
The main difference from what you said is that you're waiting until you're basically done with the map to make flow changes ... which means you'll most likely have to scrap the entire thing and start over with a better idea of what you want. The development cycle takes care of that in the very beginning (basically because it's the most important step).
If you were wondering, most painters do that. They usually take photographs and "appropriate" them to their painting (they draw rough sketches before that too, in the end there's three "pieces of art"). It's the most efficient way and it already takes somewhere around 30 hours to complete a painting like that, it would take years other ways. Does this "destroy" the artist's experience with the painting? No. Why? Because it's still their creation, the only difference is they're not doing it on the spur of the moment.
Writing is the same way. In several aspects so is mapping.
But, look, I just gave an almost guaranteed method to ensure a map is completed, I'm not telling anyone to adopt it ... [addsig]
Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Apr 25th at 6:49pm 2005
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Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Apr 25th at 6:49pm 2005
I have a s**tload of maps that i have not finished. I have the same load of ideas that are small enough to be prefabs. The problem with taking them all and malkeing one good map is that all my maps are of different themes, I have a medieval castle, a rundown wharf, a ravenholm-town-thing, a LOTR palace, and one of those high-tech pointless-arena things with lots of laserbeams and plasma balls. not a good mix.
[addsig]
Nickelplate
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Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 6:59pm 2005
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 6:59pm 2005
heh, nickelplate make a scifi castle in the space with lasers and tall towers, and then put in some ball genarators.
there you go, a super mixed map
[addsig]
there you go, a super mixed map
[addsig]
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