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unable to finish maps :|
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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 6:59pm 2005

Except for some people, like the one from Wichita Kansas who releases all the maps they create, good/bad, most of us have far more maps unreleased than released.

you guys are describing "Life as a mapper".. get used to it.

personally, i think if its not total s**t, it should be released only to get people to understand general mapping as a whole. you may feel its s**t, but someone else may find inspiration in it, so some good comes out of your s**t.

release your maps with the understanding that it is not perfect and you will sleep better. if for some reason you are under the illusion that you will only release perfect maps, i have news for you, "THEY DO NOT EXIST" i can find a defect in any map made.. and i am sure others can as well.

do your best, thats all you can do, and ENJOY.. its supposed to be fun, not work.

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 7:47pm 2005

another really annoying thing is when people who dont know anything about mapping, says that youre a noob because the full compile process is taking so long :/
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Apr 25th at 7:56pm 2005

? quote:
Use graph paper and a ruler and possibly some perspective. All are very easy.


See thats the main difference between our styles. You do planning on paper, whereas I do planning in the editor. In the end it amounts to the same thing, except I have some stuff ready to work with and move around, whereas you just have a bunch of drawings.

Furthermore, there is a creativity you feel when you are working in 3D that you don't get in drawings, and that should not be understated. As any mapper knows, the process of actuallly building gives you lots of ideas. If you plan everything on paper, you lose that creative step by forcing yourself into a pattern before you have started making things. In the software development world you would call this premature optimization.

If you are constructing a building in real-life, you had better plan it out on paper first, because the costs of rebuilding are huge. If you are creating a complex peice of software, the fundamental algorithms and design had better be correct before you start, again because the costs of rebuilding are huge - if your program is written using the wrong algorithms or data structures, fixing it could require rewriting everything, and you will not have gained much insight into the program by doing it the wrong way first.

On the other hand, in mapping the cost of remaking stuff is quite small once you have mastered the editor. Its like a sketchpad, except in 3D, and the editor takes care of all the little problems like perspective, aligning lines, and copying things. In my experience, remapping often takes less time than redrawing. You just change around the brushes, simple as that.

? quote:

Now, I'm not saying time is the ultimate factor or anything, but that's the reason why most people don't finish things they start: too much time has passed.


The amount of time that has passed rarely has anything to do with why people don't finish maps. The reason why people don't finish maps is because they get mappers block and get bored with the map, plain and simple. And (in my experience) using a software development cycle tends to cause mappers block and boredom.

? quote:

The main difference from what you said is that you're waiting until you're basically done with the map to make flow changes ... which means you'll most likely have to scrap the entire thing and start over with a better idea of what you want. The development cycle takes care of that in the very beginning (basically because it's the most important step).


Ah ha, see thats the misconception. Once you have most of your ideas fleshed out, then map is not basically done. That is just the end of the planning stage, albeit a different sort of planning stage. If you start thinking about the map as "done" just because you have made a lot of stuff, then you have the wrong mindset. [addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 8:12pm 2005

crono is a sad person with a sad personality.
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Apr 25th at 8:18pm 2005

What happens when you have to scrap an entire area because it just isn't fitting with the layout and you've decided its extraneous? Is that hard for you to do? While I agree you can get more creative if you start laying down and fleshing out ideas right away, I feel that in the end if you have a well thought out and designed layout before you get to mapping you're bound to be more successful.
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 8:18pm 2005

? quoting NatUS
crono is a sad person with a sad personality.

You are generalizing. You have not been here long enough to sound so certain.

I find Crono a lot less irritating than most because I desire to see past the facade he puts forth for everyone to see.

Now I am only judging by your membership number here, but I do not feel you have been here long enough yet to comment so... assuredly.

Pay attention to the interaction between Maze and Crono.. you may learn something.

? quoting Addicted to Morphine
What happens when you have to scrap an entire area because it just isn't fitting with the layout and you've decided its extraneous?

I never scrap what I have worked so hard to attain. I may retexture it to suit, or add some detail to "MAKE" it fit, but after its been built, it remains.

You can change the entire map with a few choice textures. IMO, most maps suffer from poor textures, not poor architecture.

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Mon Apr 25th at 8:21pm 2005

okok, im taking it back then...sowy cwono xD

i made a concept drawing twice, the first time it turned out to be a lot smaller than i thought it would be (note: i suck at drawing), the second time the concept looked pretty good, it still does, but after i made about 8% of the map, i changed the theme, and now im working on some kind of combine construction site thing with thumpers and half constructed combine structures, and it looks pretty ok at the time.
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Apr 25th at 8:27pm 2005

The only time I scrap things aren't because they don't look "right" but because they don't play well. With my map "rushdown" I realized that the laser control button was just too easy to defend, and I also realized I had to reconstruct a third of my map to come up with a more balanced location. It was frustrating, and to be honest that's why I just abandoned the map. If only I had thought the placement through beforehand, I may have been able to foresee the layout problems.
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by G.Ballblue on Mon Apr 25th at 8:28pm 2005

I know this absolutely, 100% off topic, but because I haven't been here in a month, I'd just like to say,

"Hi everybody!"

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 25th at 9:21pm 2005

? quoting G.Ballblue
I know this absolutely, 100% off topic, but because I haven't been here in a month, I'd just like to say,

"Hi everybody!"

*looks at date*

FUCHE.. i lost..

i bet you wouldn't return till may 23rd..

who picked april 25th anyways?

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by G.Ballblue on Mon Apr 25th at 9:38pm 2005

? quoting Orpheus
? quoting G.Ballblue
I know this absolutely, 100% off topic, but because I haven't been here in a month, I'd just like to say,

"Hi everybody!"

*looks at date*

FUCHE.. i lost..

i bet you wouldn't return till may 23rd..

who picked april 25th anyways?

Nice to see you to Orph :P

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Mephs on Mon Apr 25th at 10:12pm 2005

The disorder in question is NFAMNS (Never Finish A Map Noob Syndrome) and it is rife amongst mapping communities. As a sufferer of the latter stages, I have almost completely consigned the very idea of mapping to the dustbin.

The best way to describe it is ADHD with polygons and the like.

Main reasons for putting off a map:

1) Writing it down, and refining it (totally changing the idea)
2) EBTTS (Even Better Than That Syndrome) - Very Dangerous, those inflicted normally have severe cranial pressure and causes brain haemorrage unless a hole is drilled into the skull to release evil spirits.
3) Internet - Source of all wisdom, you can do anything looking at the WWW and ask anything in IRC...but somehow find yourself totally distracted from your intial train of thought...
4) BNISHMAPGMAIICPWLAPS (By now I should have Made a Pretty Good Map and If Its Crap People Will Laugh And Point Syndrome) - This is terminal.
5) JGS (Jade Gooding Syndrome) .... a curious delusion that causes mappers to loiter forums and troll or speak out with wild opinions in the vain attempt to get more than their due 15 minutes of fame without actual work.
6) SBTDS (Something Better To Do Syndrome) - Another delusion. The latent or repressed mapping instincts become so unbearable to the patient that they seek to build other things, such as macarroni figures, small scale websites or Hideously flawed nations and philososophies....(See also DM_Communism, DM_America, DM_Zimbabwe)
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by DrGlass on Mon Apr 25th at 10:38pm 2005

I find the most insperation in other maps. When I first played Natural Selection I was so drawn into those maps that I came back to mapping.

Same thing with HL2, it really sparked a fire to map again.

When I'm not around my computer I draw out map ideas all the time, I get really in depth with entities and scripted stuff, but in the end, very few maps I've fleshed out on paper come to life.

Most of the time I have a great idea for a small part of a map and can figure out a way to expand apon it.

My most recent map, dm_cliff, is a diffrent story. I started mapping with one idea.

"a huge black mesa(ish) underground facility in the side of a cliff face. On one side though... there is a public visitor center"

this expanded and expanded untill I had a full layout. By the grace of god I must say it all fit.

I think it worked becuase it was a fresh Idea and when I started getting off track I was able to leave it for a few days, come back, and keep on track. I just stuck to a base theme and worked out from that.
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Dark Tree on Tue Apr 26th at 2:17am 2005

My maps and ideas are always awkward. I never can/want to stick to one theme. Always have to mix everything....I get bored with a certain aspect of the map and continue the map in a different direction. Or I'll have a bunch of ideas and instead of making 3 different maps, I will combine everything into one map. For instance, with my dungeon so map for hl1, I wanted a castle/dungeon theme....and I ended up adding a church and hell portion to the map with elements of zelda and quake.

The end-user will know if you were bored with the map because it'll show. Keep your ideas fresh and if you get bored making a section of your map. chances are, the players of the map will too. So I say, don't ALWAYS stick to one theme in a map, sometimes it is fun to have different aspects in one map to keep it different from everything else out there.

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Cassius on Tue Apr 26th at 2:37am 2005

? quoting NatUS
crono is a sad person with a sad personality.

Where did this comment come from?





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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Nickelplate on Tue Apr 26th at 3:18am 2005

? quoting Cassius
? quoting NatUS
crono is a sad person with a sad personality.

Where did this comment come from?

from the depths of n00b hell.

natUS, I met u on IRC and you're a nice guy, so i'm gonna give you advice i wish i'd known long ago. If you want to get along with the older snarkpitters, wait about a month or more after your signing-up to start posting. That way, you get a feel for the inside jokes, AND by then your member number is old by comparison and Orph wont s**t his pants like he does when he sees a NEW member number posting thier opinions.

[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Andrei on Tue Apr 26th at 8:39am 2005

Ok, here's the way I do it:

1) I make room and waste 2 days making it cool, but don't bother adding any side-walls.
2) I compile the thing and walk around it trying to figure out what the heck it is.
3) I make a corridor and connect it to a new room, overlooking the lack of walls in the first one.
4) I bang my head against the table until i decide what to make out of the new room.
5) I make the second room even cooler than the first.
6) I scrape the first room for being "uncool" (and for contrasting with the new one).
7) I make a third room, EVEN cooler than the second one.
8 ) I get rid of the second room for being too ugly.

And so on. I usually tend to repeat step 4 every 2-3 steps. And THAT's why it takes me a while to actually complete a map. 8)
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Natus on Tue Apr 26th at 11:47am 2005

i guess i still got a lot to learn, so i will keep my silly mouth shut and open the not so silly but yet a bit funny mouth.

? quote:
I scrape the first room for being "uncool" (and for contrasting with the new one).


i pretty much recognize this, when i was making some of my first maps i was like "whoa omg im so cool, i actually made real BOX!"
and then after some time, i realize how ugly that box was, so i made another box, with something in it, and as time goes on, my boxes get more and more realistic and unboxy, but i still got the problem with deleting the old stuff, sometimes its good to delete stuff though, if it wasnt good enough for yourself, then other people probably wont like it...much.
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by thursday- on Tue Apr 26th at 3:56pm 2005

? quote:
? quoting NatUS
hmm
maybe youre right orph,

*slaps forehead*

silly me, i usually don't know anything..

of course I'm right butthole. i would not have typed it if i weren't

the hardest thing about being right is, sometimes there is more than one right, and its very hard to convince people that there is.



Quoted for truth. Alot of the time I have seen you in a discussion thread I have felt like debating with you, however I know you would just totally pwn me ;p
[addsig]



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 Re: unable to finish maps :|
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Apr 27th at 11:51pm 2005

? quoting thursday-



Quoted for truth. Alot of the time I have seen you in a discussion thread I have felt like debating with you, however I know you would just totally pwn me ;p

If I even suspected that this were true, I would avoid most all debates. I am not here to intimidate anyone, nor to alter anyones viewpoint to my favor. My two biggest fears here are 1) that I will corrupt some young mind to my way of thinking, and 2) that someones parent will get me into trouble for posting something they feel is inappropriate to their age.

I would much rather have/read a healthy debate without the need for someone to "make it personal"

I respect honesty above all else, and would much rather lose a debate through determination, than have someone avoid it completely because they feel the field is stacked against them with the "heavy weight" members.

In the future, if you feel intimidated, send me a PM, and I will bow out in favor of your participation.

/Me bumps Thursday's rating to a "4" for his honesty

[addsig]




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