Snarkpit Mapping Standards
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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by DocRock on Fri May 20th at 7:03pm 2005


If you remember, during Half-Life 1 mapping, the SnarkPit members had set mapping standards for maps. For instance, some of the members asked mappers to keep their rspeeds under 600 and the wpoly under 7000 (correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers).

I'm wondering if the SnarkPit has had any discussions lately about the best +showbudget numbers for Half-Life2 mapping.

I'm sorry if this subject has been discussed already. If it has been, please point me to the correct thread because all of the searches I did for this came up empty.




Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Orpheus on Fri May 20th at 7:18pm 2005


? quoting DocRock
If you remember, during Half-Life 1 mapping, the SnarkPit members had set mapping standards for maps. For instance, some of the members asked mappers to keep their rspeeds under 600 and the wpoly under 7000 (correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers).

I'm wondering if the SnarkPit has had any discussions lately about the best +showbudget numbers for Half-Life2 mapping.

I'm sorry if this subject has been discussed already. If it has been, please point me to the correct thread because all of the searches I did for this came up empty.

No, so far we have not. It seems to be to dependant on machine sizes/quality to really break it down to hard numbers.

IMO its anything that reduces it down below 20FPS, on a respectable PC. Thats just my opion though.

HL2 has none of the barriers that HL1 had that renders machine sizes moot. No matter how big your machine was if you built a piece of s**t, it was a piece of s**t. HL2 renders s**tty maps with no real problems at all.

In the end, I use my own judgment. If its s**t, no machine or author will convince me otherwise.

/ 2cents





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Myrk- on Fri May 20th at 8:36pm 2005


Orph speaks truely... There are very few boundaries with HL2.


-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by SaintGreg on Fri May 20th at 9:12pm 2005


But.... You really shouldn't make a map that nobody can play, thats just stupid. If you get an average of 50 fps in HL2, you shouldn't have to get 20 fps on a map somebody built.



To get something to work, sometimes you just have to beat your head against the wall longer; the skin grows back, but the brick doesn't.

Source hates soup!



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Campaignjunkie on Fri May 20th at 9:41pm 2005


I generally use the FPS in official Valve maps as a rough goal. In Overwatch, I average about 90, so I usually shoot for around that amount. There's a lot more than r_speeds affecting everything - physics, shaders, water...




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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by satchmo on Fri May 20th at 10:13pm 2005


? quote:
FPS in official Valve maps


That's what I go with also. I assume if people are able to play the official single player levels from Valve, they shouldn't have any problem playing the custom maps.



"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Orpheus on Sat May 21st at 12:19am 2005


As I said though, it really boils down to machine size/quality.

I have two comps that will play HL2 satisfactorily, one a hell of a lot better than the other. Now understand, WINXP only really allows 60 fps unless you disable vsinc so not everyone is gonna get the same results even if they have the same general PC specs.

I feel that with HL2 it really only boils down to what YOU would find acceptable for play. So far, I have seen no maps so horribly built that my new 3500+ cannot handle it. Perhaps one exists, but I have not seen it yet.

So to answer your question Doc, I think the skies the limit. You can pretty much make anything you please. People will either like it or not. Quality of construction will always show itself. s**tty maps will as well.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Sat May 21st at 2:43am 2005


I agree with CJ and Satchmo. While machines vary, as long as custom maps are playable to the same extent of the official maps, I'm happy. I probably average 20-40 fps on overwatch and am happy with any custom maps that play in that range. It also helps me judge the performance of the maps I put together. If it ever dips below 20 I know I have a serious problem that I need to take care of.




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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by DrGlass on Sat May 21st at 4:49am 2005


I think that mapping standards should move out of performance and into technique. There are so many simple things that people do wrong when they map. I see this first had with the mosaic submissions, 1 unit thick floors... intersecting brushes, blan boxy rooms, etc.

What would be cool is if we has some kind of review thing that people can send their maps into and we can have some people look over it and compile a knowledge base of mapping mistakes.

or we could make a big list of tips and tricks? I remeber a great tut over at VERC that had 50 tips of mapping, I know that I still live by many of those tips even today.




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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Orpheus on Sat May 21st at 4:50am 2005


? quoting Addicted to Morphine
I agree with CJ and Satchmo.

*taps foots*

and what the f**k am i? chopped liver?.. they basically said what i did in a condensed format.

where they pick the valve maps as a base comparison, i chose a set FPS period. I have seen some fantastically huge maps have high numbers, and i have seen the opposite.

anywho's, the bottomline is, i have no intention what so ever of getting a bigger pc JUST to run a s**tty made map.

[edit] this is old but not quite obsolete. i think we should begin another one exactly the same. ever once in a while i see a tidbit slip through the cracks and think "i should copy/paste that someplace. smiley





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Sat May 21st at 5:01am 2005


I didn't mean to insult you Orph . I just thought you weren't in agreement with Satchmo and CJ because of this:

? quoting Orpheus:
So to answer your question Doc, I think the skies the limit. You can pretty much make anything you please. People will either like it or not. Quality of construction will always show itself. s**tty maps will as well.

Oh and is that you on the site?




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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Orpheus on Sat May 21st at 11:16am 2005


? quoting Addicted to Morphine

Oh and is that you on the site?

Yeah, I was famous.. once... only once.

*whispers*

the post was lightblue bud.

[edit] My condensed answer. Make anything you wish, it will show if its crap or not.

the end.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Myrk- on Sat May 21st at 11:51am 2005


Just make a map, I'm sure it's unlikely you'll hit limits and if you do, either its a crap map or a good one, and the good one will still probably be played regardless...


-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by keved on Mon May 23rd at 8:03am 2005


? quoting DocRock
If you remember, during Half-Life 1 mapping, the SnarkPit members had set mapping standards for maps. For instance, some of the members asked mappers to keep their rspeeds under 600 and the wpoly under 7000 (correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers).

I'm wondering if the SnarkPit has had any discussions lately about the best +showbudget numbers for Half-Life2 mapping.

As the others have suggested it's much more difficult in HL2 to have such rigid guidelines to try to adhere to; there are now more elements than world and entity polys which can contribute to poor fps performance.

The problem with using +showbudget as a guide is that, having, say, a large world geometry bar can be fine if few cubemap-heavy textures are used, so it would get really confusing as to the 'ideal' a map author should be aiming for.

If there was any mapping standard to be used for HL2 I'd suggest it be mat_wireframe in conjunction with any of the fps readout commands (net_graph or whatever).

Mat_wireframe clearly shows how well (or badly) constructured and optimised a level is. As long as mat_wireframe shows no big issues to address (lots of unseen geometry uneccessarily being rendered etc) and the fps command used gives a reading at least comparable to the Valve levels, the HL2 renderer will likely handle the level fine.





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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Orpheus on Mon May 23rd at 10:15am 2005


I would have to concur thats a good assessment you have Kev.

Thanx for further clarifying what my lack of text could. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Leperous on Tue May 24th at 10:08pm 2005


I would also like to add that you should be fine as long as your swapbuffer levels aren't going crazy, in addition to everything being mentioned above.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by omegaslayer on Tue May 24th at 10:32pm 2005


? quote:
I would also like to add that you should be fine as long as your swapbuffer levels aren't going crazy, in addition to everything being mentioned above.


Just for clarification: what causes swapbuffers to spike anyways?






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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Crono on Tue May 24th at 11:10pm 2005


? quoting omegaslayer

? quoting Leperous
I would also like to add that you should be fine as long as your
swapbuffer levels aren't going crazy, in addition to everything being
mentioned above.


Just for clarification: what causes swapbuffers to spike anyways?


Swapping image



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue May 24th at 11:14pm 2005


Is it too many reflective surfaces?




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Re: Snarkpit Mapping Standards
Posted by satchmo on Tue May 24th at 11:35pm 2005


I believe the swap buffer goes up when there are too many potentially visible surfaces at any one location. When the player turns around, whatever that's behind the player is buffered, even though it's not within the VIS.

Have you noticed that when you turn to a highly detailed area of the map at first, the framerates would drop suddenly, but only for a fraction of a second. I believe the engine is buffering the surfaces, so that the next time the player turns around, there wouldn't be any performance hit.

That's my own hypothesis.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge




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