Education Time.
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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Jun 14th at 10:50pm 2005


OK, I will be the first to admit, that I have strong beliefs that seldom prove to be popular. I will also admit that on most of them I am unwavering in those beliefs and no amount of convincing will alter them much. I have admitted repeatedly that I am not particularly politically minded so when people use political terms it tends to throw me for a loop till I get a layman's clarification of such.

On at least two occasions I have been told that I am conservative in my views, but people in real life say I am extreme in my views.

What I want to know is, what are the real definitions of "Conservative" and "Liberal"

My second question is, are there only two types of political beliefs within the political viewpoint?

Lastly, show me an example of me being conservative.

This is a legit set of questions because I truly do not want to give the wrong impression, even if the real impression is turns out to be extremely offensive to some, I want it to be the real reason you think so.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Mephs on Tue Jun 14th at 10:59pm 2005


Personally, I like to think of conservative and liberal as the noun and verb (dunno who I hijacked the concept from, I think mainly my dad).

Conservatives like it as it is. They are what is. Noun.

Liberals like to move things along, the verb.

Conservatives are generally more stable, since they like to keep the status quo. Liberals are a less stable, but in most cases, right.

The perfect government has an equal blend of the two, since neither is affective without the other.

That's as metaphorical as I can put it, its pointless yapping about "hes anti-this and they are pro-that."

Sounds trippy and fairly vague, but you can apply it to any policy.




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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Jun 14th at 11:06pm 2005


But how is being an extremist being confused with conservative in this case?

Is text so ineffectual that I give the impression that my belief system is stagnant? Being unwavering IMO does not mean stagnant.

I know people who still believe in God, in spite of all the examples that there couldn't be one, yet I wouldn't call them conservative.. In fact, most of them accept things that I find about as offensive as one can be...

I really do not understand.. Someone else explain the views please.. Sorry Mephs, but I am no closer to comprehension than I was before you posted. :/





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by French Toast on Tue Jun 14th at 11:06pm 2005


I'm 14. I want things my way, whatever that may be. (conservative or liberal or whatever)




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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Mephs on Tue Jun 14th at 11:26pm 2005


Sorry, but yes, unwavering DOES mean stagnant, Orph. If you will never change, your belief no matter what, then its stagnant.

Which technically means that demoncray and loving thy neighbour are stagnant. But this is a good point/thread. When DO the boundries collide?




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Re: Education Time.
Posted by satchmo on Tue Jun 14th at 11:36pm 2005


You can easily be conservative and extreme. All the anti-abortionists are considered conservative by me, yet some of them are also extremists (especially the ones who resort to violence and bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors).

In order to avoid opening up old wounds, I'd refrain from coming up with examples that might make some people "conservative" and "extreme".

To me, conservatives tend to hold on to their existing belives no matter what. They are unwilling to consider any alternatives or view things differently from others. Liberals tend to keep an open mind and are willing to experiment with other lifestyles/experiences.

I just try to keep an open mind to everything, and I try to think outside the box and question existing standards and believes. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt before I they prove me wrong.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Jun 14th at 11:40pm 2005


I still disagree (could be an example that you are indeed right however)

I do not think that believing in something, you know to be correct is stagnant.

If I believed the world was flat, and you proved it was not, but continued to believe it was flat then you would be correct. But I do not believe in silly crap like that.

Hmm.. Still does not explain how the two words "conservative" and "Extremest" can be the same when the very nature of each word is so foreign to each other.

I do not doubt what you are saying, what I doubt is that the definition is lacking a part that is failing to convey your true definition.

Lets assume for the moment that conservative only means "The inability to accept alternate viewpoints" With that definition, I can see some of what I say as conservative. But what happens when your unwavering belief involves extreme actions, or more accurately "Unpopular actions that could be considered extreme"

For instance.. I firmly believe that Gays are made, not born, and the action should involve jail time when caught.
For instance.. I believe that fat people have no respect for themselves so why should I?
For instance.. I believe that Child molesters are not gay, but children who were molested could become gay. (hence my strong outburst in the MJ thread)

What is conservative in those views? I was always taught that to conserve was to miser something.. being conservative was someone who didn't do outrageous actions.. My belief system involves very extreme actions sometimes.. (castration of child molesters is not to unkind a punishment)

Anywho's.. defining the two seems beyond me, or beyond you Mephs <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Myrk- on Tue Jun 14th at 11:58pm 2005


Maybe they call you extremist because maybe some of your views which you express more often are extremist perhaps? I personally see some of your views extremist, and seeing as I don't take much notice of your other comments, I'd say your extremist

Its like women really... You compliment them and it goes in one ear comes out the other. Say something nasty and it stays there like a red wine stain on a creme suede sofa.




-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Myrk- on Wed Jun 15th at 12:05am 2005


Conservative-

  1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
  2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
  3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
    1. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
    2. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
  4. Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
  5. Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
  6. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

Liberal-

    1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
    2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
    3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
    4. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
    1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
    2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
  1. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
  2. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.
    1. Archaic. Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
    2. Obsolete. Morally unrestrained; licentious.



-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by fishy on Wed Jun 15th at 12:07am 2005


are extreme fundamentalism and fundamental extremism the same thing?




i eat paint



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 15th at 12:11am 2005


EGADS!!!.

those definitions portray conservatives as evil/satanist and liberals as saints of some sort.

I do not think I like those definitions.. truly. Its like redefining "Phobia" to make it evil to dislike homosexuals.. Its not evil by any definition of the word "EVIL"

I think.. a liberal wrote those definitions.

IN FACT.. I will take it as a personal affront from now on if anyone designates me "conservative" from now on..

beware.. i do not like those definitions at all :/





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Myrk- on Wed Jun 15th at 12:19am 2005


Basically just says Conservatives like how it is, and liberals are open to change.


-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 15th at 12:39am 2005


? quoting Myrk-
Basically just says Conservatives like how it is, and liberals are open to change.

How about "Like it was" because the changes are here now, and many of the suck owl s**t.

But seriously, those definitions paint it "Evil" and "Good" and I really do not like to be branded "Evil".. IMO its just as bigoted of the liberals who proclaim themselves not bigoted..

*sighs*

Why did we ever allow the liberals so much power. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Jun 15th at 12:54am 2005


..........but it is never, and should never be, as cut and dried as all that....

in my mind, it all boils down to good and bad, right and wrong, and the amount of intensity youd care to press your particular viewpoint with....

i have a brother whos as gay as a flaming pride parade....i love him, hes my brother....only one i have. now, i disapprove completely of his lifestyle....the backdoor action he perpetuates is imho, completely un-natural, and then he bitches about not having a kid.... i say, "as it should be" ...im conservative in that view....but i havent killed him yet, so i suppose i have leaned a bit towards liberalism in that sense.... (perception is everything)

im pissed off that the social security system is in tatters....a liberal viewpoint....if i decided to bust into my local social security office and rant and rave and take hostages, i believe that would make me an extremeist.....and liberal.....

i believe that we as a nation should be in iraq etc, for the right reasons....a conservative view generally....im mad as hell that we didnt get the straight poop about it when we went in.....i didnt just blindly say, "well, we may as well finish it since we are here"....leans me again towards liberal.

see a theme here?

its all a mtter of percetion, and what you believe to be the right thing, the wrong thing, the good thing, or the bad thing.....IMHO.....

/////me dons bulletproof vest, and goggles, and waits in ernest...

Doc Brasso....:dodgy:

ps.....this is also the biggest problem i have with people today....they dont quite dig MY viewpoint, because i wont, except in extreme circumstances, take a definitive side....<img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">





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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 15th at 1:23am 2005


Hell Doc, I brand myself a "Black and White" thinking individual yet...

I see nothing wrong with anything you just typed.. Do I agree because we are nigh onto the same age? or is it that we have similar life experiences?

I hate homosexuality, but hate damned few Gay people.. I hate Racism, yet I call many people I know friends and quite a few are Racist. I do not consider myself bigoted or two-faced either, I just think that you should at the very least, pay for your choices throughout life. My friends who are racist, know that they had better watch their mouth whenever I am around.. Pain is a valuable lesson if you get my drift.. Same with my gay acquaintances.. They had better not act gay whenever I am around.. meaning don't you dare touch,approach or otherwise incite any contact that could be considered intimate with me. What they do in their own bedroom/home is one thing, what they do in my presence, is MY business..

On another note, I have yet to kill my first gay, so perhaps I am also liberal in that sense.. *shrugs*

Still.. I abhor branding, and it reads to me that if you are liberal you are in effect a good person, and a conservative is a bad one.. If you do not like Good and BAD, then at the very least accept "Positive" and "Negative" persona..

Unless someone can define the words without those branding, I am suggesting strongly, do not call me a conservative hence forth.. I would really take it poorly.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Jun 15th at 1:37am 2005


how about....a conservationist......////runs really fast

Doc B...

i guess what im trying to say is that "branding" as you call it jon, is the biggest crock of s**t in the world today, but, everyone does it to a certain extent....its nature, in all its glory.

black and white, is right or wrong....and age aint gotta f**kin thing to do with it big jon....its the person. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">





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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Jun 15th at 1:38am 2005


Every statement so far has been from a liberal, and many of them not americans... The Liberal/Conservative concept is a regional one, and has slightly different meanings on the two sides of the pond. It is inaccurate to characterize liberals as "pro-change" and Conservatives as "anti-change". While I believe that is one meaning of the two words, it is not the meaning of the concept in American politics. Plainly, Conservatives do want change. In the extreme case, many seem to want a theocratic state. Conversely, Liberals would very much like to keep the status quo on many points, such as abortion.

It is also incorrect to characterize liberals as deomonstratably more open minded than conservitives. Show me the liberal who does not believe firmly that abortion is Right. That belief is no different from the conservitive viewpoint that it is Wrong. It doesn't matter who is "correct" or who has better logic, or more political clout, the point is that neither side will budge an inch... and oh, guess what, that means that both sides are both closed-minded.

Think of it this way Orph, If politics is one dimensional (I don't think it is) than at one end you have liberals, and at the other you have conservatives:

Liberals--------------------Conservatives

Left --------------------Right

To be extreme is to hold opinions that fall predominately at one end of this line or the other. It does not matter which side you are on.

I will take examples of social welfare policy:

Extreme Liberal: The government ought to provide a basic standard of living for all citizens and prevent any given individuals from being much richer than others. All health care should be free.

Moderate-Liberal: The government ought to provide financial support to those who are in need, and provide free health care for all.

Moderate-Conservative: The government ought to help people who are in need, but strict guidelines are required to keep people from leaching the taxpayers unnecessarily. Health care is a consumer commodity, and needs to be paid for just like anything else.

Extreme Conservative: It is not the governments business to support indigent people. Health care is a consumer commodity.

Now all these views are within the accepted spectrum of mainstream American politics. While I have characterized the right and left most views as extreme, that is of course relative. The word "extremist" to me denotes a tendency toward violence. For example:

Conservative extremist: Poor people ought to be rounded up by force and put into labor camps so they can do some good.

Liberal Extremist: Corporations are evil. We ought to shoot the CEOs and nationalize all industry so that every man can have a job and wealth will be spread out evenly.

The right wing extremists bomb abortion clinics and shoot gays, while the leftists attack loggers, spike trees, and burn SUVs. Both of them are reprehensible. These are people who have allowed an ideology to swallow them whole, leaving nothing left but an empty vessel committed to spreading their strange disease.

With regard to stagnation...

Orph, the simplest definition of stagnant is simply "not moving" therefore, by definition a view point that does not change is "stagnant". It deosn't matter if you are right or wrong, just or wicked. On the other hand, it is not the best term to describe a simply motionless situation, since the other connotations of the word are all negative. It undoubtedly derisive to refer to anyone's beliefs as stagnant. There are many other words which mean "unmoving" that do not have the same negative overtones. You have come up with the example yourself. You say you are steadfast, they say you are stagnant. You are both technicaly right, but an opinion is expressed in the word choice. you think you are right, they think you are wrong, or at the very least that lack of change is by definition a bad thing.




Some people are like slinkys...

They aren?t really good for anything, but you can't help but laugh when one tumbles down the stairs.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jun 15th at 1:55am 2005


What confuses me most about this entire thread is.. I read this part and say "yup thats me" then I read another part and say "whoa, thats me too" but guess what? its opposing teams..

I understand many of the things you guys are saying, but some of the things still go over my head..

perhaps they should invent a new word for extreme liberal-conservatives like myself..

*sighs*

Life as a stupid person like me... You guys should be proud you do not have to suffer my indignities.. look at this entire thread.. except for Doc, I am getting informed by people at the very least 1/2 my age.. thats sad.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Jun 15th at 2:03am 2005


Don't worry that you hold views in the opposing camps Orph. I certainly do. Really, "Conservative" and "Liberal" are just umbrella labels to encompass an array of mutually opposing ideas.

I would be frightened if I ever met a person whose views were either wholly liberal or conservative.




Some people are like slinkys...

They aren?t really good for anything, but you can't help but laugh when one tumbles down the stairs.



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Re: Education Time.
Posted by fishy on Wed Jun 15th at 2:22am 2005


Orph, i'm looking at the definitions again, and i can only see that a consertative is a bad thing if i make an assumption that it is opposite to the definitions given for liberal. which isn't really the case. in TB's 2D example conservativism and liberalism are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and that may be how it's seen in the US, but i don't think it would warrant defining everything about one as being the opposite of the other.

here in the UK, the conservatives are the right wing, pro establishment, landowner, bring back national service and hanging types. at the opposite end of the the 2D political spectrum used to be the socialists/communists/hippie types. now it's not so clear cut. the liberals are seen as middle of the roaders, which seems to be too close (on the 2D line) to whatever party people are most against to be a valid option for them to vote for.

with the policies of the traditionally opposed parties getting less opposed as each of the parties try to leech votes from the other, i can see a day coming when they will almost merge to stand against the liberals.




i eat paint




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