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Whatever happened to Orpheus?
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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Adam Hawkins on Wed Sep 7th at 11:16am 2005

The fun behind mapping for HL1 was seeing how much you could push the engine while still keeping it all running at a decent speed (god bless r_speeds!). With HL2, it's just not there for me - there's no real challenge.

I used to enjoy mapping through thinking up ideas that wouldn't be possible, and trying to cram them into creaky ol' HL1. Some weren't successful, others were.

Yak is right though. The more spangly the engines get, the more time is required to create a decent original map - which pushes us amateur mappers further away. I don't see myself mapping again for a very long time.

Oh, and come on back Orph - 'tis quiet here without you and your nappies <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">




You Got To Get Through What You've Got To Go Through To Get What You Want But You Got To Know What You Want To Get Through What You Got To Go Through



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Sep 7th at 5:22pm 2005

did it ever occur to any of you guys that maybe he was just sick and tired of the whole scene? not only is hl2 mapping pretty much in the crapper for those of us who dont have the time to dedicate to it on the level needed, but the general tone of this forum, which at one time was my absolute favorite, has diminished in such a fashion that it is starting to resemble many other low budget, unkept, free-for-all forums out there....sorry lep, i still love yer site, yer the best man. but the fact remains, its changed dramatically....ive learned more here than on any other site on the net, and you all have no idea how it pains me to say these things....but facts are facts....feel free to give me yer best floggings, im ready....

tip of the hat to Orpheus....you guys dont know how good you had it with him here, as well as the others who have bid a silent, yet profound exit....

peace....

Doc Brasso...:dodgy:





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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by pepper on Wed Sep 7th at 6:33pm 2005

Your probably right, though im not the one to say that i geuss.


RUST Gamedesign
pepper design

The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee.



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Sep 7th at 7:04pm 2005

I miss Orph. I miss the comraderie, too, Dr. B.


I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by French Toast on Wed Sep 7th at 8:19pm 2005

I feel so upset. You make it sound like i'm ruining your community <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif"> <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dark Tree on Wed Sep 7th at 9:20pm 2005

I'm sick and f**king tired of ppl complaining about not having enough "time to dedicate to it on the level needed" crap. OR that the HL2 engine makes it too hard for beginning mappers to start or that HL2 is SOOOOOOOOOO uninspiring...

Firstly: Level Needed. Exactly WHAT LEVEL do we NEED to be at? Is that level DIFFERENT from HL1? Not all maps have to have spiffy bumpmaps. So what if the map doesn't look as nice as the maps did in HL2. Thats like ppl who after the DVD medium was released, COULDN'T watch VHS anymore. I have JUST as much fun DMing in a fun killbox (oh my god I said killbox) as I do DMing in a highly intriquite and lush environment. All maps can be fun as long as the mapper had fun making it. I know that satement is highy questionable, but I have had probably the more fun on "crappily made" maps than those maps that think their s**t don't stink.

Second: Hammer is now harder to use and/or it seems too much of a task with the new toolset....and that because you were awesome BEFORE but now its not worth it to re-learn everything. GODAMN! Someone shoot me NOW. HAMMER is the EXACT GODAMN same. Anything you could do in Hammer before, you could do now, with only a few differences:

A. MultiManagers. Who gives a s**t that they are gone. the new system is MUCH better, and easier than MMs. The in/out wat of coding sequences should take about 10 minutes of messing arond before you got it all figured out.
B. Textures. I will admit, the hardest thing to learn wil be textures. There are some tutorials though (most of which are pretty confusing), and it is how I learned. If ANYONE needs help with textures and won't map because they have a problem with textures, just PM or email me or anyone else here who knows and we'll be glad to help.
C. Ladders. There is a new system with ladders, but you know what? Who CARES! You can still use the old "sticky ladder system" which is better 90% of the time anyway.

You don't have to be able to make models to make a map! Just map and forget about modeling! Worry about that later after you pump out a couple of maps!

Third: HL2/HL2 texture set/HL2 map pack is uninspiring. Oh please. Again, anything you could think up with HL1 to implement, you STILL CAN! Except NOW, you can do MORE! You don't HAVE to learn all the fun HL2 engine stuff...just stick to what you would map for HL1! And if you are new, don/'t learn to tricky stuff if you dont want to (cubemaps, how to make textures, etc). Just make some fun maps (square rooms, a couple of doorways and when your curiosity gets the best of you, take a day and learn that s**t! HL2 is TWICE as inspiring! You can do all you could before, and, only if you feel the need to, you can learn more experinced stuff to do more! I admit, the texture set may be lame, and I (as most of you may know) am sick of the broken down city maps with worn out houses.....so guess what! Make some new godamn texures! And again, if you DON'T know to...then ASK! I myself (and I'm sure others) are more than glad to help out as much as possible with making textures/models/ etc.

I am not trying to single anyone out by making these statements and they are directed at no one in particular. your post, Doc, just sent me into orbit.

Oh yeah, and come back mOrpheus




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Captain P on Wed Sep 7th at 11:45pm 2005

Maybe some people have more fun when the map they're making also looks good? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Hammer is mostly the same, mapping is not. Details are now done with modelling a lot more. Most of us didn't like over-used prefabs in the HL times, now it's the same with the standard prop-model set. That's why I want to model. It's not going to hold me back, but in order to express myself, I want to learn it. I don't like pumping out maps that I don't feel right about, like City17_6428_v2.5 or canal_1001.

Textures aren't hard to create, imho. Making them look good can be, though. Personally I think modelling takes more time as it requires you to learn working with a new program.

Anyway, mapping is just changing, and with newer engines it's going to take more time to maintain a certain quality level. Sure, basic mapping is still quite easy, due to the texture set maps often look better much easier. But to make a map stand out, it takes more time to do all the content yourself (or ask a friend). Also, since every map instantly looks good (well, the textures and models do), I can understand a lot of people loose interest. They were good mappers and nowadays suddenly everyone can do the same...

Actually, I just have little time right now. I lost interest a bit after HL2 came out but now I'm over it somewhat. It's just a lack of time now. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">



Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dr Brasso on Thu Sep 8th at 12:25am 2005

? posted by French Toast
I feel so upset. You make it sound like i'm ruining your community
toasty toasty toasty......stop it stop it......this set of comments was in no way directed at you man, as a matter of fact, yer one of the few newer members that i have absolutely no problem with.....for a kid, yer pretty damn smart, good sense of humor (which will get you through life with a smile) and fairly respectful and considerate from what i can tell....s**t, any 14 year old who digs zeppelin the way i did, well.... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">
now mr tree.....for not singling anyone out, you did a fair job of locating me.... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
shall we take it from the top?
? posted by Dark Tree
I'm sick and f**king tired of ppl complaining about not having enough "time to dedicate to it on the level needed" crap. OR that the HL2 engine makes it too hard for beginning mappers to start or that HL2 is SOOOOOOOOOO uninspiring
where to start....
lets see....yer what? a student? well hells bells.....study and party....hmm...oh yeah, and map. aparently you have time to sit and soak up all the necessary knowledge to use hammer with hl2 that you can look down upon those with 2 jobs, families to support, mega bills to pay, grass to mow, vehicles to keep up, etc etc etc......whats the longest duration of time youve spent building a map?....oh yeah, and you had to figure out all those little quirks in hl1 mapping all by yerself, without the assistance of a tutorial or helpers....hmm.
do you have the time to make all yer own textures? thw knowledge? the wherewithall? hmm.....
ya know what? screw it. yer a saint. saint darktree, patron saint of the map.
excuse me, but its exaclty that kind of attitude, and presentation, let alone the unmittigated gall, that helps drive away the ones that are/were the best. bottom line, you dont know yer ass from a bucket, and yer work proves it. if you can settle for what youve built, then that shows yer character.....enjoy yerself.
sorry guys, but i can no longer take it. the attitude is killing me....i guess you had to be around for the "glory days" of hl mapping to understand. its been fun while it lasted....good luck all, and give em hell.....peace.
Doc Brasso




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Cassius on Thu Sep 8th at 12:43am 2005

Sorry, Dark Tree - how many HL2 maps have you released?

The intricacy of the art and the know-how required to produce it increased drastically between Half-Life and its sequel; and emulating, if not topping, the level of detail exhibited in the game became drastically more difficult. Simple concept.




[Im_invisible] "I would suck a man off, but only for sustenance."



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by parakeet on Thu Sep 8th at 1:55am 2005

heh , the art world only gets harder my friends. The realists thought they had it tough when the photograph came out , well what about the surrealists when computer generated images came out ;p.

All in all , i think its harder yet worth the work . hl1 was good fun though.

And dark , if you can make it better without subtracting from gameplay then do it , but remember not all peices are even meant to be played.

orph was one of the most sophisticated ones here =l

keef?



.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by BlisTer on Thu Sep 8th at 3:42am 2005

? quoting Captain P
Maybe some people have more fun when the map they're making also looks good?

Hammer is mostly the same, mapping is not. Details are now done with modelling a lot more. Most of us didn't like over-used prefabs in the HL times, now it's the same with the standard prop-model set. That's why I want to model. It's not going to hold me back, but in order to express myself, I want to learn it. I don't like pumping out maps that I don't feel right about, like City17_6428_v2.5 or canal_1001.

Textures aren't hard to create, imho. Making them look good can be, though. Personally I think modelling takes more time as it requires you to learn working with a new program.

Anyway, mapping is just changing, and with newer engines it's going to take more time to maintain a certain quality level. Sure, basic mapping is still quite easy, due to the texture set maps often look better much easier. But to make a map stand out, it takes more time to do all the content yourself (or ask a friend). Also, since every map instantly looks good (well, the textures and models do), I can understand a lot of people loose interest. They were good mappers and nowadays suddenly everyone can do the same...

agreed. i think i spent more time learning and implementing -only- 2 aspects of the new material system (bump/normal maps and shaders), than spending time on any aspect of hl1 mapping. Apart from learning it ofcourse.

Ofcourse i could not have bothered, but there's a drive to make something that ppl cant reproduce instantly. Dark Tree is right in saying that you can still achieve this to some extent with awesome architecture and lighting, but HL2 can offer more than that, if you have the time, energy and motivation. And we feel compelled to do so cause the possibilities are there

You could say progress shot itself in the foot in a way. It reached us hella pretty effects and loads of possibilities, but at the same time the input required to achieve them is often too much for us. Yet it's unavoidable: more and more prettyness and possibilities require more and more input and learning.




These words are my diaries screaming out loud



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dark Tree on Thu Sep 8th at 5:41am 2005

? quoting BlisTer
you can still achieve this to some extent with awesome architecture and lighting, but HL2 can offer more than that, if you have the time, energy and motivation. And we feel compelled to do so cause the possibilities are there


That is all that I was saying.

? quoting Cassius
Sorry, Dark Tree - how many HL2 maps have you released?


Zero. Thanks for checking my profile . And why haven't I released any? They take too damn long. I don't have as much time as I would like to DO as much as I would like.

Doc Brasso, I really wasn't trying to single you out, and I shouldn't have used a direct quote. I just don't want people to quit because it is too hard. I am a student, with mega bills, with 2 jobs, with a girlfriend (not quite a family), and I do have a lawn to mow. You nailed me on the head. I just don't want folks to quit mapping! I do not profess to be a mapping saint! God! you make me sound like I'm so full of myself! My maps get an average rating of what....6? You also said: "you had to figure out all those little quirks in hl1 mapping all by yerself, without the assistance of a tutorial or helpers....hmm". I obviously used tutorials (did you even read my whole post?) What does that have anything to do with what I said? All I was talking about was the difference between hl1 and hl2 mapping. It does take a long time to start....and in the 3 years I've been mapping, I probably only know half of the stuff I should just about HL mapping! and as for being satisfied with the quality of my 2 dms, yes, I am satisfied! My SP coulda been better, but it was decent enough (for me.)

Anyway, sorry to have offended. Honostly.




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Cassius on Thu Sep 8th at 5:43am 2005

? quoting Dark Tree
I'm sick and f**king tired of ppl complaining about not having enough "time to dedicate to it on the level needed" crap.
? quoting Dark Tree
And why haven't I released any? They take too damn long.
Nice.





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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dark Tree on Thu Sep 8th at 5:51am 2005

I am working on a map. I didn't quit! I was referring to ppl who were quitting because they take too long!

The only reason you are posting is to try to start a flame war and catch me up in a lie or something. Why is it you only post when you see something I said that pisses you off? You remind me of Michael Moore, putting together quotes out of context to prove a point that doesn't exist.




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Cassius on Thu Sep 8th at 6:22am 2005

I don't dislike you. <3



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dark Tree on Thu Sep 8th at 7:50am 2005

I don't dislike you either. Lets make out.




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Agent Smith on Thu Sep 8th at 9:13am 2005

? quote:
sorry guys, but i can no longer take it. the attitude is killing me....i guess you had to be around for the "glory days" of hl mapping to understand. its been fun while it lasted....good luck all, and give em hell.....peace.


I agree completely. No offence to the new mappers out there, but I can't stands the noobs no more. With the release of HL2 it seems Half-Life mapping has gone down the s**tter. I still enjoy mapping for it, but I no longer enjoy participating in the community that has mutated since its release.

There are still a lot of good people out there, and here, but a majority of the community no longer cares about the key ideals that made HL mapping great. Creativity, originality and quality were things that all mappers aspired to achieve, and they did so through communitys of like minded individuals, who valued the opinions of those who had more experience and skill. But it wasn't about superiority, it was about mutual respect and the goal of becoming better.

These days 90% of maps are complete rubbish, or are released at a point far from completion. The worst thing is that these same mappers don't listen to or want advice from the community they are supposed to be part of. They think their work is hot s**t and will savagely attack anyone who comments otherwise. This is crazy, the point of community is to gain the opinions and advice of others, not gain unwarranted praise and admiration. If thats what they want then they should form a cult.

What is equally worse is when people criticise the work of others and put them down for having difficulties, when they themselves haven't even bothered to put in the effort to create something themselves. All communitys seem to have an ever increasing number of people like this, and they seem to be crushing the new mappers who want to make something better.

I'll be taking the cue from some of the other longtime members of this site by taking a break from the SnarkPit's once hallowed halls. Hopefully the situation will improve. Adios Amigo's.



Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'



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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by keved on Thu Sep 8th at 9:27am 2005

? quoting Dark Tree
Third: HL2/HL2 texture set/HL2 map pack is uninspiring. Oh please.....

....I admit, the texture set may be lame

Aside from the one Cassius already pulled you up on, are there any other contradicting statements you wish to imbue upon us, with your wisdom of (checks profile) three completed HL1 killbox style levels?

Sorry, but if you're going to mouth off as strongly as you did, you better have the background to backup your claims.

? quoting Dark Tree
Not all maps have to have spiffy bumpmaps. So what if the map doesn't look as nice as the maps did in HL2....I have JUST as much fun DMing in a fun killbox (oh my god I said killbox) as I do DMing in a highly intriquite and lush environment.

...Whereas I don't want to drop ?100s on an Ati 850XT PE to be playing randomly-strewn-together-brushes-ala-dm_killbox garbage that took someone half an hour to create, when the engine is capable of this.





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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Dark Tree on Thu Sep 8th at 10:07am 2005

? quoting keved
three completed HL1 killbox style levels

3 KillBox style levels? Thanks, but Brown is anything BUT a killbox. And my SP is a 4-map dungeon-crawl style map. The only "killbox style" map I created was the large cylindrical brainf**k dm.

? quoting keved
Sorry, but if you're going to mouth off as strongly as you did, you better have the background to backup your claims.

I already apologized. Sheesh!

? quoting keved
? quoting Dark Tree
Third: HL2/HL2 texture set/HL2 map pack is uninspiring. Oh please.....

....I admit, the texture set may be lame



What? I said it was lame. Not uninspiring. I use what I can from the included tex's and it inspires me to make new textures! Inpsiration can be found in strange places...

My main computer is f**ked and I made a bad decision to post what I did. The heart of the message wasn't meant to be hurtful, but helpful.....I was desperate not to lose some of the mappers who might quit by offering myself to give helpers on how to make textures, etc. for hl2 who were thinking about leaving, instead my message got picked apart and thrashed. I offered twice in that first post to help people with stuff in case they were thinking about quitting. I offer to host files for people who can't find a host anywhere else! I try to help this community as much as I can, but apparently many think differently.


? quoting keved
I don't want to drop ?100s on an Ati 850XT PE to be playing randomly-strewn-together-brushes-ala-dm_killbox garbage that took someone half an hour to create, when the engine is capable of this.
Yes I know. The engine can create some unparalleled beauty, but, if the task seems too high at first, I would just want ppl to take it one step at a time (instead of saying it's too hard and quitting.)

Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy low budget movies just as much as the multi-million dollar hollywood productions...




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 Re: Whatever happened to Orpheus?
Posted by Crono on Thu Sep 8th at 10:21am 2005

I'm not arguing with any of the HL2 mapping points made here, but perhaps the "time" isn't really that obvious.

HL2 hasn't been out for a year yet, not to mention DM ... dod isn't released yet (And it is looking quite impressive). It just sounds like the current level of maps for hl2 is being compared to the final level of maps for hl1 ... which is ridiculous. You guys had five years on that engine, and most maps started getting good around the second to third year and on.

I guess, give it time, once you have a well defined outlook on the game's limitations, believe me, you'll find ways to make it "amazing" again. There are already many limitations that could be tackled (making water on a different plane through the use of shaders, for example)

Honestly, when the hl1 engine wasn't "cutting it" you began making custom content. Is this really that different? I suppose it's frustrating because you're now forced to learn things you didn't want to do before (modeling, for example)

But ... tough. I know game design will get easier in the next few years though, since editors are becoming not just "map" editors, but game editors. Where you can change almost anything that's in the game ... will that be too much to deal with?

To be honest, the hl2 engine is still pretty simplistic when it comes to mapping ... and on the texture front ... when you couldn't find exactly what you wanted in other engines, did you bitch and whine? No, most likely you made your own texture that you needed ... or found it online, but that comes back to the age of this game.

There's just not enough content floating around yet.

I think, honestly, having other mods come out will help. Because ... really ... weren't those the only things that really showed you that the hl1 engine could be pushed?

As for the quality of the forums lately ... I'm going to have to agree. But, honestly, if you want to make it better around here, especially in the mapping department, get creative.

It'd be pretty awesome to see a day/night cycle that runs well online. Or what about map based objective-team play? There's a slew of new things you could utilize the engine for ...

I'm sure not many of you would agree.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.




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