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Aaei, it burns!
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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Captain P on Wed Aug 31st at 1:21am 2005

Every now and then you've probably had it: just downloaded a map for no real reason at all and tried to play it, only to find out you're getting stuck within the first minute, or to have a squad of grunts thrown at you while you're only armed with a crowbar.
I'm talking about maps you had rather not played.

Now it's not my intention to bash mappers so I'm not asking for specific maps or examples, but just what do you people really hate to see in maps? What has annoyed you in the past in a custom map?


To give it a start, I hate getting stuck, like a clipping error, or a door that wasn't playtested well enough to open more than once.
I also despise unavoidable, or almost unavoidable instant deaths. Instant death is quite a heavy penalty on the player and I think it shouldn't be used too quickly.
Also, I really don't like maps that consist of a bunch of randomly slap together rooms. It has to make at least some sense, contain some logic, for me. Think of things like gargantua's in cupboards or buildings without any doors.

So, how about you guys?



Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by French Toast on Wed Aug 31st at 2:34am 2005

Weird scaling issues. For example, the first hallway is say 128x64 rectangle, then the next hallway is half the size, and the size of things that should be the same are all out of wack.

That really grinds my gears...




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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Aug 31st at 3:18am 2005

If we're talking about Singleplayer mapping, I really hate non-linear maps. Like... there's a part in HL1 where you're at a T and you can either go left or right... and there's no hint at which is the right path, so you arbitrarily choose right and after a bit of walking you turn a corner and its a dead end with no items and no monsters... sure I guess its realistic but I feel like games, like good movies, should be finely crafted to the point where every little bit is important and it counts.

The mapper DaveJ always espouses the idea that when a person walks into a room (or an area) he should immediately be able to see an exit to move towards. At first this seems like an oversimplification but I agree with him. I would hate to walk into an area with 4 unmarked doors that lead to different corridors and areas and having to explore each of them without a clue of how exactly I'm progressing, or if I'm doing it in the right order -- this is especially irksome if one of the routes loads a new level or activates a cutscene or transports me to a new place where I can't get back and explore the other rooms I missed.

Anyway -- that's enough jabbering.




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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Major Mike on Wed Aug 31st at 3:45am 2005

I hate when someone places crates against a wall, but with just enough space to fall behind it and get stuck.



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Crono on Wed Aug 31st at 3:59am 2005

? quote:
If we're talking about Singleplayer mapping, I really hate non-linear
maps. Like... there's a part in HL1 where you're at a T and you
can either go left or right... and there's no hint at which is the
right path, so you arbitrarily choose right and after a bit of walking
you turn a corner and its a dead end with no items and no monsters...
sure I guess its realistic but I feel like games, like good movies,
should be finely crafted to the point where every little bit is
important and it counts.


The mapper DaveJ always espouses the idea that when a person walks into
a room (or an area) he should immediately be able to see an exit to
move towards. At first this seems like an oversimplification but
I agree with him. I would hate to walk into an area with 4
unmarked doors that lead to different corridors and areas and having to
explore each of them without a clue of how exactly I'm progressing, or
if I'm doing it in the right order -- this is especially irksome if one
of the routes loads a new level or activates a cutscene or transports
me to a new place where I can't get back and explore the other rooms I
missed.


Anyway -- that's enough jabbering.


Not a big fan of games that make you think, eh?


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by wil5on on Wed Aug 31st at 8:02am 2005

I hate messy brushwork. Walls that dont quite line up, objects obviously made out of far more brushes than needed, things like that irk me. It doesnt stop me from playing a map, though.

I dont like SP maps where there is no obvious path to follow. Like you have to break something, but theres no signs that its breakable.




"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Dark Tree on Wed Aug 31st at 8:09am 2005

The main thing I hate in SPs is unoriginal and repetitive gamelay, IE having to revisit the SAME room 3 or 4 times in a LAB or generic room in a building to do something, then moving on to the next phase of the map and doing the same thing again....although....there are exceptions to the rule......




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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Junkyard God on Wed Aug 31st at 9:30am 2005

i HATE fy and aim maps etc. etc. in counter strike becouse they are all the same but re-textured, i can't beleive people even want to make a s**tty map like that >_< and if you do atleast make it original, i've even seen fy maps that were easier for one team than the other ,i mean wtf <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> how bad can you get at gameflow when you can't even make an fy map fair for both sides.

that's about all i hate realy, i don't play alot of custom other things ( i don't play custom cs maps anymore now, they drive a bazookies )




Hell, is an half-filled auditorium



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Hugh on Wed Aug 31st at 9:46am 2005

SP: I like it when there's the semblance of non-linearity but not so much where you get confused as to where the hell you're supposed to go... I dug how Halo had red lights over the doors that wouldn't open so you knew to avoid them, but I wish there weren't so damn many of them with red lights...

MP: I like lots of ways to get to the same area, it keeps everyone on their toes if they realize that they can't just watch one certain entrance... plus it's a lot of fun in more stealth-based games when you can actually sneak around the bastards and then have fun with your silenced pistols and whatnot.

In general: Texture misalignments really make me dislike a map, no matter the game. Not so much for the "lack of realism," it just always makes me think the designer wanted to throw some incomplete map out there just so they'd have something to show, rather than spending another week or month to make sure everything's tip-top before they release it.



One day you'll know what you're talking about, I can hardly imagine

Maps! - Audio blog!



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Captain P on Wed Aug 31st at 1:32pm 2005

I agree that there has to be at least some sort of hint as to where to go. A choice is fine, but give the player a chance to do it right without having to die multiple times.

A while ago I played Turok and while I hated the instant death falls, I did notice some nice things. At a certain spot there were 8 teleports, aligned in a circle. Only one would lead you further (the others teleported into lava or such, I don't remember). That's annoying, if it wasn't for that little hint: a tree that bended over in a certain direction. First time I just tried one at random and took some damage. Then I noticed the tree and I tried the right one. That made you feel smarter, rather than annoying you with a try-at-random puzzle.

/rant

Anyway, as for multiple routes, I think it depends on the gameplay. A linear game should give hints, where a game with a free-to-move environment doesn't have that problem really. I think it comes down to the point that the player should always know how to get further. Perhaps not exactly how to solve his current situation but at least he should know the higher goal. Something to strive for.



Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by keved on Wed Aug 31st at 2:10pm 2005

? quoting Dark Tree
The main thing I hate in SPs is unoriginal and repetitive gamelay, IE having to revisit the SAME room 3 or 4 times in a LAB or generic room in a building to do something, then moving on to the next phase of the map and doing the same thing again....

Sounds remarkably like Halo.





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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Captain P on Wed Aug 31st at 3:23pm 2005

Heh, another thing is silly enemy placement. So often you see grunts just waiting for the player, rather than that they were actually doing some sensible things like patrolling, maintaining radio contact or the like. You encounter enemies in the most strange places doing nothing, sometimes.

And yeah, Halo was pretty repetetive. Comes close to the 'mindless killer' type of game... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">



Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by satchmo on Wed Aug 31st at 3:48pm 2005

Welcome back, Captain P. I miss your analytical critiques of my maps.

Funny how people get annoyed by non-linear gameplay. Because I go out of my way to create non-linear play. It increases the re-play value of a SP map tremendously, and it's resembles real life more. It also adds tension to the player, because he/she doesn't know whether it's the way leading to some weapon, or a gang of enemies.

That said, I disagree with dead-ends (and there are lots of them in HL1). And there should be multiple ways to beat a map--there shouldn't be a "right" or "wrong" way, just different ways. The player has a choice, and it's interesting to watch how the NPC enemies behave differently in a non-linear arena. Sometimes they actually play a game of cat-and-mouse with the player.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by MisterBister on Wed Aug 31st at 3:57pm 2005

? quote:
The player has a choice, and it's interesting to watch how the NPC enemies behave differently in a non-linear arena. Sometimes they actually play a game of cat-and-mouse with the player.



Yeah, thats so cool. Especially if you manage to sneak up on them from behind afterwards.




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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Captain P on Wed Aug 31st at 5:00pm 2005

Non-linearity indeed increases replayability value but it has to be done carefully. Quite some players feel like they miss things when they take one of several routes.
Your maps, Satchmo, didn't had that problem really since the map itself was pretty much comprehendable. The player could oversee the routes he could take.

The frustrating thing we talk about here is when players can't see where routes will lead them. Perhaps they will be a dead-end, perhaps it will be the good route. So it's not an alternative route, but a different route that can lead anywhere - or nowhere. When it's an alternative, let the player know. Then he doesn't feel like he missed something critical, and perhaps he'll replay the map doing the other route.

As for dead-ends, as long as they serve a purpose it's ok. A secret or some goodies, things like that. Hey, you could even make a trap out of it, luring the player with some goodies and then convincingly throwing enemies at him.



Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Aug 31st at 5:19pm 2005

I didn't much like the part in HL-1 where you had to get the rocket motor up and running to kill the giant vine-thing. Sure, it was a cool idea for a puzzle, but it was irritating to keep running back and fourth. There needed to be status boards and such elsewhere in the map so you could figure out what still needed to be done without running all the way back up to the control room!




Some people are like slinkys...

They aren?t really good for anything, but you can't help but laugh when one tumbles down the stairs.



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by rival on Wed Aug 31st at 5:49pm 2005

? quoting Tracer Bullet
I didn't much like the part in HL-1 where you had to get the rocket motor up and running to kill the giant vine-thing. Sure, it was a cool idea for a puzzle, but it was irritating to keep running back and fourth. There needed to be status boards and such elsewhere in the map so you could figure out what still needed to be done without running all the way back up to the control room!

yeah that bit really pissed me off because it took me so long to figure out what to do!




Bullet Control: $5000 for a bullet.
&quot;I would blow your f**king head off! ...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving some money... then you a dead man!&quot;



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by French Toast on Wed Aug 31st at 6:34pm 2005

You guys suck I liked that part <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">




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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Aug 31st at 7:39pm 2005

? quoting French Toast
You guys suck I liked that part

Like I said, it was a cool puzzle. I just think it could have been implemented better.




Some people are like slinkys...

They aren?t really good for anything, but you can't help but laugh when one tumbles down the stairs.



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 Re: Aaei, it burns!
Posted by DrGlass on Wed Aug 31st at 7:59pm 2005

SP: I agree, I hate having to take one of two routes and thinking "what did I miss back there" then replaying the whole game to just find some health or something.

MP: I hate, HATE, when people make "remakes" of good maps and place a whole bunch of "cool" extras. Like dust_2, some one hacked it and just carved out all kinds of new paths and sniper towers. They didn't understand that it may seem cool, but it kills game play. The dust maps were extreamly well thought out and timed.

As a mapper I catch all kind of texture errors (alot in hl2) and that draws me out of the game. Its like an artist being able to point out where someone made a mistake in a drawing, kinda





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