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What is the internet comming to?
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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by wil5on on Sun Sep 18th at 1:37am 2005

I agree with your first paragraph, Nickel. The rest, while it follows from that, I can't agree with for the most part.

Everyone has their own religion, based on their own interpretation of whatever religious teaching theyve had. I'm atheist, I beleive theres noone to "answer to" after I die, what difference does that make?

Is there anything really wrong with abortions? Kids being born to 16 year old mothers probably stems from them deciding not to have abortions. Probably a result of parental ineptitude... but I'm generalising. There is nothing "wrong" with casual sex in itself.

You cant say our generation is worse than any other. It sounds like youre just being nostalgic for the past. Every generation had abortions, casual sex, godlessness, and this one is no different.

You say a lack of god will be the downfall of human society. I dont have the eloquence to describe how I feel about that statement, but I will say that I'm a well-adjusted, reasonable atheist, and I think that following arbitraty rules from 2000 years ago makes no sense.




"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Max]I[muS-X on Sun Sep 18th at 1:39am 2005

I disagree with a lot of what you have posted wilson.

For one, while you may believe there is no God, the question in itself is VERY important and makes a lot of difference. Say for example there is a God, and he does follow a certain moral code and guidelines that you may find "arbitrary". I'll get to that later, but for now, what do you think the difference would be? Well, if it's true, than you will be very unhappy after you die and perhaps even at various points in your life, not because God forgot about you, but because you forgot about God. Simultaneously, you will be missing out on a happiness we can not comprehend. I say "very unhappy" as a tragic understatement, but I am intentionally staying away from the classical Christian depictions of Hell as a fiery pit.

On the other side of the coin, if there is no God, then all the people following religion today, while some were still devoting themselves to morals which can help society, will in the end be following a lost cause and will not recieve their due after they die, but instead will rot in the ground. So yes, there is a tremendous difference.

Is there anything wrong with abortions? Well, is there anything wrong with murder? Yes, there may be a debate about a grey area; for example, when is the baby alive? But nickel mentioned laws where you can legally 'terminate' a baby the day before it is 'born'. Do you really think the baby magically comes to a different kind of life after it hits the air? Would you honestly condone the very irresponsible act of killing a newborn baby? If so, you prove nickel's point about the general degradation of morals in society.

And no, 16 year old mothers having kids does NOT stem from them choosing not to have abortions. The problem stems from the moment they choose to have sex. Maybe she will not get pregnant, especially with the technology we have today, but this is something to EXPECT every time you have it. This is something that is lost in today's society. You may not be aware of this, but the primary function of having sex in most if not all species is to reproduce, and the desired feelings that come along with it are to make the animals WANT to do it. You should not be too surprised if the bodies actually managed to carry out their intended function.

There have been generations that were decidely more moral than others, but at the same time you're right, there have been generations before and after that have been more depraved. Whether they can really be compared, seeing as how today the whole world is becoming closer and closer to one global society, rather than a collection of radical and totally seperate societies, is debatable.

I've already made this long enough for a post, so I'll cut it short, but I want to end on this. Some of those "arbitrary" laws are thankfully still recognized by society today, and to even call them arbitrary shows a ridiculous ineptitude to understand exactly what they imply. Some are completely dependent on the existence of a God, yes (i.e. Thou shalt worship no other Gods before me, etc), but others are good for society as a whole. Anything that promotes loving families, upright citizens, and wholesome behavior is enormously beneficial to humankind, if only most could uphold them.



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Nickelplate on Sun Sep 18th at 2:37am 2005

? quoting wil5on
I agree with your first paragraph, Nickel. The rest, while it follows from that, I can't agree with for the most part.

You can be an atheist and still understand the principles of good and right. I hope nobody takes it the wrong way. I think you can be almost any religion and still be a good, kind, person.

? quoting wil5on
Everyone has their own religion, based on their own interpretation of whatever religious teaching theyve had. I'm atheist, I beleive theres noone to "answer to" after I die, what difference does that make?

But if you have no religious teachings then you just use tidbits of the bible that u heard on TV and make your own religion. And, yes, I don't beleive EvERYTHING they say in church by any means, but I beleive the bible. There has to be a right and a wrong way of doing things, and not EVERYONe can be right. There's no gray areas. You as and atheist and me as a Christian cannot BOTH be right in our beleifs, you know? And your beliefs make a difference to me, because I care about other ppl, and what i beleive says that lots of other people are going to die eternal death. I don't want that to happen.

? quoting wil5on
Is there anything really wrong with abortions? Kids being born to 16 year old mothers probably stems from them deciding not to have abortions. Probably a result of parental ineptitude... but I'm generalising. There is nothing "wrong" with casual sex in itself.

of COURSE there's something wrong with abortions. The babies don't exist because thier moms didnt get abortions. The babies are born because thier moms were either raped or was having casual sex. THAT is what is wrong with casual sex. what u just said is the sort of reasoning that ppl employ to make thier lifestyle sound OK.

? quoting wil5on
You cant say our generation is worse than any other. It sounds like youre just being nostalgic for the past. Every generation had abortions, casual sex, godlessness, and this one is no different.

What past? I'm only 20 years old. You can't tell me there were shows that ADVERTISE casual sex on TV in the early days of TV or anything like it on the radio. Shows like "sex in the city" and "queer as folk" both STRONGLY suggest that casual sex is the norm, and that it's okay. AND that nothing will ever come of it, well something does come of it, it's babies.

? quoting wil5on
You say a lack of god will be the downfall of human society. I dont have the eloquence to describe how I feel about that statement, but I will say that I'm a well-adjusted, reasonable atheist, and I think that following arbitraty rules from 2000 years ago makes no sense.

"Arbitrary rules?" come on man, if you don't want to follow rules like "don't kill" and "don't steal" and "Love your neighbor" then there's something wrong there.

PS. I'm not mad at anyone, okay?




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by satchmo on Sun Sep 18th at 2:50am 2005

Religion was created with good intentions, but unfortunately it has been twisted by fanatics and crazies to further their own agenda.

Consequently, it's frequently used to justify horrifying deeds that are completely out of character from the original interpretation of the religion.

Mankind can never exist without religion. It's human nature to have religion, and God is invented as a necessary character for most religion to work.



"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Max]I[muS-X on Sun Sep 18th at 3:10am 2005

If you want to state your opinions as factual, I will too.

It's human nature to have religion because there has always been a higher power, and always will be. God was never invented, it is the conceit of mankind that claims He was.




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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by wil5on on Sun Sep 18th at 3:26am 2005

Nickelplate, I guess my argument boils down to there being no absolute morals. You are morally opposed to a lot of things, you see things as "good", "bad", "right", "wrong". I try not to see things like that. What happens, happens, and its not my job to judge peoples behaviour based on my own values. If they want to do stupid things and ruin their lives, I wont stop them. What to you seems like "wicked" behaviour, I see as stuff that happens. Until people having casual sex, abortions, etc. bothers me, I'm not going to speak out against it.

I'd also like to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with killing, stealing and hating your neighbor. Its just generally a bad idea. These rules do make sense, but there are exceptions. Do you disapprove of soliders killing to protect you? The bible is full of rules that simply dont make sense in modern times as well, for examples of this read Leviticus.




"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Gaara on Sun Sep 18th at 3:27am 2005

I really don't understand how somebody could get so depressed they contemplate suicide (except maybe chronic pain eg cancer). Also how somebody could fail in trying to kill themselves. I also believe no good has come of any suicide (well maybe Hitler).


Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Crono on Sun Sep 18th at 3:37am 2005

I just want to say something, maybe to clear some air, even if it doesn't need it.

Religion is a belief. Anything you can't prove that you accept as a truth is a belief.

You cannot tell someone their belief is wrong. It's not only arrogant, but is also unfounded, since you don't know (unless you're Alterran ... in which case I want you to explain worm-hole technology ... now)

Faith, in general, keeps people sane. It really does help and make you feel better throughout your life. Whether it be true or not is irrelevant, they are tools to help you (general term) live a fuller life. For example, as you might have noticed, people who're Christian will most often times say, "I feel better since accepting Jesus". This gives a warming and secure feeling which that person can turn to for the rest of their life. It will essentially allow them to deal with almost any emotional situation they encounter. Again, whether this is really what is happening or not, is irrelevant.

At this point, many people who're atheist, not targeting anyone, may say "But if it isn't true, why should they believe". Because, the fact is, if the world IS nothingness and this is as good as it gets, a lot of people cannot face that fact and will crumble under its weight. This is why faith (in whatever) is a good thing to have. It's not as if it is harming people who believe in it or anything like that.

Now, with that said, no one has the right to push their belief onto someone else. You can try to understand their point (which is how this thread was when it started), but at no point do you have the right to try to enforce your view as the correct one. There is no right and wrong, that's WHY they're beliefs. If they were "strictly" right and wrong, everyone would follow them (generally). An example of something like this is: Killing someone. It's a general conceptualization that doing this is wrong, which it is. Now, of course there are always reasons, if they are not well founded, however, this is a travesty of an action. (By the way, when I say killing as a "bad thing" I mean: Murder. Not defending or "bringing justice" or anything like that.)

Believe what makes you happy. Because, even if you did force your view on someone else, you'd be taking something away from them that will, most likely, always trouble them, thus making their life much harder to live; whether or not there is an afterlife: once it's over, either way, they didn't enjoy the trip. So why do it?

There are, of course, situations where this isn't a factor, like your children. I think you should be open and encouraging to them about finding something to believe (whether it be God, no God, or Teddy Roosevelt). Allowing them to find something that suits them when they are older is something that should be encouraged and unless the ideas you believe are hopelessly pounded into their minds, they will question it. Not to mention the amount of trouble they will ultimately feel until they do figure it out, since they probably wont understand why they don't feel the same way their parents feel about those beliefs.

We're all here to enjoy our lives. I KNOW that is the meaning of life. It's the only possibility. Happiness and pleasure are the only things that make life worth living. If you believe something else: that's fine. I just hope you are comfortable with your beliefs and they actually help you. Because if they don't: what's the point?


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by mazemaster on Sun Sep 18th at 4:01am 2005

I'd like to bring up the point that believing that a god does not exist (atheism) requires just as much "blind faith" as believing that god does exist since there is no proof either way.

Alright, some other things:

? quote:
Now, with that said, no one has the right to push their belief onto someone else.


That statement you just said is a belif, is it not (you believe that no one has the right to push their belif on someone else)? You assert without proof that people do not have a "right" to do something, and you are pushing that belif onto other people. Oh wait, your statement just contradicted itself...

? quote:

There is no right and wrong, that's WHY they're beliefs.


Who are you to say that there is no right or wrong? Do you have a proof that there is no right or wrong? Didn't think so. Believing that there is not a right or wrong takes as much faith as believing that there is a right or wrong.


http://maze5.net



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Max]I[muS-X on Sun Sep 18th at 4:05am 2005

I think actively asserting your belief is not pushing it on to other people, with moderation. I think the only way you could push your belief on to other people is either by forcing them to believe it or by repeating your belief to that same person over and over despite their consistent rejection of it.




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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Crono on Sun Sep 18th at 5:12am 2005

I said, there's no right or wrong beliefs. And the common respect of not pushing your views on someone else is not something that is a belief. It's not okay.

I wasn't speaking of "right and wrong" as in "good or bad" or something as such, which seems how you're interpreting it, I meant it as in a right view or wrong view, the very concept doesn't make sense, since, it isn't provable.

However, taking what I said out of context, which is what you're doing.

Basically, my point was, if you didn't catch it, to live happily, it's not going to be acceptable to purposefully harm someone else, whatever the fashion of "harm" may be.

If you can't agree on that ... I don't know what to say.

However, I'm sure you're just being difficult and over analyzing what I said to try to make a spark. Which wont work. Because, even going by your line of thinking ... what makes it okay for you to question my views?

I'd like this to not really escalate, I'm just responding to your points. I made my "case" and everyone can take them as they may. They were just meant as sort of a observational view, that's all.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Nickelplate on Sun Sep 18th at 6:36am 2005

? quoting wil5on
I'd also like to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with killing, stealing and hating your neighbor. Its just generally a bad idea. These rules do make sense, but there are exceptions. Do you disapprove of soliders killing to protect you? The bible is full of rules that simply dont make sense in modern times as well, for examples of this read Leviticus.

Yes, soldiers killing other soldiers is wrong. Let them stand aside and when they enemies reach me, I have a few options outlined in the bible "Flee from evil" or "turn the other cheek."

As for Leviticus, well, you need to understand the WHOLE bible, There is an old testament and a new testament, the new testament. In the new testament Jesus tells us that the old law no longer applies. This means that all that stuff about shellfish and mildew doesn't count anymore. Instead, we've all got the ten commandments, and the High Two. ?Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart and with ALL your soul and with ALL your mind and with ALL your strength; and the second is like it?love your neighbor as yourself? (Deut. 6:5; Mark 12:28-30-NIV). If you're wondering why the ten com. still stand after jesus said the old law doesnt apply, is because he said "I declare all things clean" which means that the levite laws which deal with ceremonial cleanliness are the N/A ones.

Crono. How are you so sure of all this?

I don't think telling people what you beleive is forcing it upon them, I dont think that telling them that your way is the only right way is forcing it on them. In order to force if on them, I'd have to pull a Cortez and say, "tell me you love Jesus or you die."

[edit] Oh yeah, and I, like Crono, really don't want this to be a pissing contest. I hope we can all present our views and supporting reasons without being snide about it. otherwise it becomes an arguement. this is a discussion and they're two different things.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by wil5on on Sun Sep 18th at 6:50am 2005

I think everything that can be said, has been said. I've looked over the ten commandments, they do seem like an arbitrary set of rules (and going through many translations didn't help I'm sure). However, I think I've already made myself clear on that point. I'm not going to hold myself to a set of rules like that.


"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Nickelplate on Sun Sep 18th at 6:55am 2005

? quoting Nickelplate

Look at how many people in the other thread or other people in general if you ask them said "I have my own religion, I don't like the idea of a higher being ruling my life, I beleive that as long as I'm a basically good person, I will be okay." or "I don't like all the rules so I have my own religion."
Nobody wants to answer for thier actions.

? quoting wil5on
I'm not going to hold myself to a set of rules like that.

You beleive what you beleive, but I wish it wasn't this way.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Crono on Sun Sep 18th at 7:22am 2005

How are you so sure of your beliefs? Like I said, they're beliefs. What good is a belief if you're unsure about it? You change your mind, basically, when this arises. Which, in effect, can change what you believe.

In any case ... most of what I was saying was basically something everyone should agree on: don't oppress people. If you can't agree on that ... then what're you doing in the current world society? Honestly. This is what pretty much every nation is striving for. (whether they want to do it slowly or not to gain capital is another situation)

I think nit picking things I'm saying like, "you have no right to impose your belief on someone else" isn't valid. I really can't understand why you'd, basically, want to be such an arrogant dick to say, "Look ... I'd hate to break it to you, but this stuff you believe in is wrong ... and you're wrong for believing it" ... which we're all, seeming, to agree that that isn't okay. Unless you're just trying to make a conflict in the thread. (I'm not calling anyone this, it's just how I'd see this line of thinking. Just to clarify, I'm not insulting anyone here)

What I said, also, I should note, has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. It's mostly how I live my life ... which would be the same regardless of what I believe. But, regarding some of what I said as "matter of opinion" is really a bizarre thing to say, since I'm talking about basic human rights. If you want to say that I'm bestowing my views on your because I think people shouldn't be treated differently based on things they believe, but instead on things they do, then, fine. I just figured, the general goal would be to get along with other people ... not to get pleasure from harming them.

That's really all I was saying ... So ... I'm not sure how else to explain it.

It'd be the same as going up to a judge and going, "So, why is wrong for me to rape a woman?" or "why can't I murder people based on their [insert genetic feature]?". It really doesn't make sense unless you've got a peculiar view on things and life in general.

However, like I was saying ... you can't force someone to believe in something they don't agree with. It just doesn't work. And really, if it is just a belief (where as, human rights is more of an ideology) then you can't prove it thus ... you have no basis on imposing it ... I know a lot of people misunderstand what I'm saying on this point. Oddly enough, nothing insulting here, but the only people I've found (personally) that have this view tend to be Christian; it's always puzzled me why it was so important to "save" all these people if they don't want to be saved ... yet it's okay to goto war ... Not labeling here, or being stereotypical, just been my experience with some of the people who practice the religion. (And, no, I'm not blaming the religion, I just think some of the teachings get interpreted in very peculiar ways. Which could be for any number of reasons. Maybe even to the point that you're discriminated against if you don't think the same way. As I understand it ... for the most part, some branches are very discriminated against (mostly by people who're not very good at understanding their own religion, which they claim to take stock in)) ...

I hope I'm expressing what I was saying better ... I'm really not trying to raise more questions ... just maybe another way to think about it. That's all.

But, the problem is ... going back to the imposing views idea ... saying anything ... at all ... could be seen as imposing a view, ideology, belief, whatever.

But, yes, It'd be best to treat this as a discussion.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by $loth on Sun Sep 18th at 7:28am 2005

There is one problem with the bible, that it's hugely dated.
As you were talking about the ten comandments; "thou shall not praise false idles" yet, here we all are, sitting on out computers with our TV's, Hifi's, driving out car's. If that one rule is not followed and doesn't relate to our own time period, why should the others, it's all a matter of opinion when it comes to religion my view is that the bible should not be followed because we all have common sense when it comes to morals. Take for example abortion, many people are at either end saying yes have one whenever, and at the other end saying no never! I put myself in the middle, yes if the baby is from rape or if it's early then it's really just a collection of cells which can't even think.
Or casual sex, if your into that then in my opinion have it if someone else is up for it, although I would say always use protection of some sort.





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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by pepper on Sun Sep 18th at 11:10am 2005

I have been to a museum a few weeks ago, they had a ... about evil. How it was 'invented'. Where it came from, and how it has been used in the scociety, now and in the past.

The evil as we know it now has been created by religions, so religions did set a standard that is still used by scociety. Personaly i believe religions where made because people couldnt understand the world. For me it only brought death and destruction. From the medievals in wich non-believers where tortured and killed, the spanish king hunted down everyone whom wasnt a christian and killed them.

Also i believe it was created as a tool to control the big mass of people. After all Jesus was just a politician, he knew how to motivate people and had his own view on the world.

And really, i consider the bible a unreliable source, it has been re-written dozen of times, all by authors whom had there own view on the world around them. That must have influenced them to change/add things.Now i ask you, How can a book that is thousends of years all still be representive for the 'words' of god and jesus?




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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by Gaara on Sun Sep 18th at 11:25am 2005

This is turning into the religion poll from a couple of days ago. Also I agree with pepper that religion is a tool used throughout history to control the masses.


Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.



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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by moonracer1313 on Sun Sep 18th at 4:22pm 2005

Just something for people to think about; no matter what their theological beliefs. Religion was created to explain why things happen and are the way they are back when people couldn't answer those big tough questions. But science has grown, and taken over that role.

Science is a highly ritualized process for discovering and explaining how things are the way they are. It is a Globaly accepted system. Though we must realize that much of science, like other religions, is theory.

As for teen pregnancy, while a religious background may prevent a teen from having sex, I feel propper sex education would do a much better job. At least in that case the teen in question would be aware of things like safe sex. Modern sex education is just too little, too late.

While religions that teach abstinance sound nice, that only works for people who follow and believe in that religion. A sad example of this is of a certain religion that belives using a condom is a sin, and so goes to Africa (a country with a horrible AIDS epidemic) to preach this and try to stop the use of condoms (and I'm sure try to stop premarital sex also).

Science, religion and law are all messed up. There are far too many humans on this planet. Humans still haven't learned to get along with each other. And we all feel more like ranting about our religious beliefs and hot social topics rather than talk about why this kid killed himself and if it was okay for him to.






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 Re: What is the internet comming to?
Posted by DrGlass on Sun Sep 18th at 5:07pm 2005

Saying that religion has been a tool to controle people is bashing what religion should be, it is true that religion has been used as a tool for contorl. For instance the white south spread religion to the black slaves becuase that religion stated that if you did your job and were good on earth an eternal heaven awaited you.

I agree with crono, we should live life respecting each other's belifies and have a good time here on earth becuase the only thing we know is that we will live here and we will die here. Everything else is speculation.

I'm not religions becuase I cant devote myself to something that says with no solid evidence that that religion is the right path. I dont want anything to do with a god that would condem me for living a pure life under the name of another faules god.





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