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Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Oct 31st at 3:39pm 2005

I came across an article today that (in the spirit of satchmo) I wanted to share. The article in its entirety can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/10/28/science.debate.reut/index.html

For those of you without the time or energy to read the (rather short) article, here are a few excerpts that I thought could engender some discussion.

I've also posed some questions, but by all means don't limit yourself in your responses. These questions are only a springboard for discussion, and I broke them up into seperate issues to keep things organized.

Issue #1:

? quoting CNN.com:
Polls for many years have shown that a majority of Americans are at odds with key scientific theory. For example, as CBS poll this month found that 51 percent of respondents believed humans were created in their present form by God. A further 30 percent said their creation was guided by God. Only 15 percent thought humans evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years.


Did these figures surprise you? Why or why not? What would you have voted? Why?

Issue #2:

? quoting CNN.com:
U.S. school students perform relatively poorly in international tests of mathematics and science. For example, in 2003 U.S. students placed 24th in an international test that measured the mathematical literacy of 15-year-olds, below many European and Asian countries.


Is this information surprising/shocking/unsettling/humorous? Why is it that one of the world's most developed countries is only 24th on this list?

Issue #3:
Is the Evolution vs. Intelligent Design debate stirring up anti-science sentiments in the United States?

Issue #4:
Do you think Intelligent Design should be taught in schools? Or at least mentioned?




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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by SpoolE on Mon Oct 31st at 3:46pm 2005

My country is all up for science, so we are actually very advanced here <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">
Anyway, Im all for evolution. There is SO much proof, that you could literally drag someone to a lab and show it to them, live! TB germ evolves all the time, preventing ammunity to it. I dont know why people dont believe in evolution, since what about it offends relegious people? I have a VERY relegious friend, and he believes in evolution.



I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Oct 31st at 3:56pm 2005

1. I guess to start this off I'll say that I was truly shocked by the poll results. I truly expected more people to vote for the evolution option, which is what I would have done if I had been polled. Evolution is something that I was taught in school, but this isn't a new issue for debate... and I remember reading National Geographic last year where they decried the forsaking of evolutions or its dismissal as "just" a theory. Their main point was that theory = truth. It's not just a wild guess, its an accepted truth based on scientific proof.

2. As for the US's low global rankings, I think this is simply disgraceful. As a wealthy well-developed country that supposedly puts a high standard on education (especially at the collegiate and university levels), we sure as hell don't live up to the hype. I'm not sure why we scored so low... but we really need to bring ourselves up to speed.

3. Not sure.

4. Personally, I think not. On both counts. It would be like presenting a different explanation for gravity, or energy transfer... we already have the scientific truth, so why confuse the issue with guesswork frivolous ideas?


I expect to be thoroughly disagreed with on a few points, so feel free to voice your opinions. I'll be interested in hearing what others have to say.





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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by satchmo on Mon Oct 31st at 4:52pm 2005

I have seen a survey that revealed most Americans aren't sure whether the Earth revolves around the Sun or the other way around.

I wonder how many Americans know that water is a polar molecule. I have lost faith in humanity when it comes to intellect. The average person is grossly ignorant, and only every now and then I get surprised by some slim trace of intelligence in a person.

That's why I like hanging out with geeks (and we don't have a dearth of them here at the SnarkPit). Because geeks, by default, are a whole lot smarter than the average joe/jane.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Pvt.Scythe on Mon Oct 31st at 4:57pm 2005

For some reason or another I can't believe that those things came to you as a surprise. It's the american way of thinking that other cultures are inferior to them that makes them sloppy at school.
Seriously. I was quite astonished when we had this nurse student from Utah on one of our english classes and she didn't even know where Finland was... When a friend of mine asked if they thaught any geography in US she answered that they were, but it came so early that she had forgotten it all... That class told me very clearly that something wan't right in the education system of the US.

Forgive me for not using enough *Sarcasm and if you don't like the way I write you can go f* yourselves...



''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Dr Brasso on Mon Oct 31st at 5:47pm 2005

i think youve actually answered the question already....

being the richest country in the world has set us up for the fall....its complacency, mixed with laziness to the nth degree, due to being the richest, the actual street scrap for survival becomes the norm, and capitolism at its finest, has nothing to do with science. make as much money as you can, f**k everyone else, and we'll clean up the messes later.....somehow. its inevitable....may be pessimistic, but its true.....history always repeats itself. and empires fall.

god and science have always bothered me in the same debate. there is no logical meeting of the minds here othere than "live and let live"....people need religion in their lives just to get thru the day. life sucks, then you die, and they try to make it as easy and justified as they can. if its not religion, its drugs, or alchohol, or sex addict (always wanted to try that one... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> ) or whatever it takes. so...back to live and let live. i personally think that something had to start all of this, it was much biggerthan any of us mere mortals could ever imagine, be it a no-s**t god or what, but whatever it was, if its gonna kick my ass, im supposing i'd bow to it.....kinda goofy.

need a coffee....to,be continued...

Dr Brasso..:dodgy:





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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Oct 31st at 6:09pm 2005

ISSUE 1: Actually, Creation science IS NOT anti-science. Creation science is proven by lots of evidence of sudden apprearances of things where there was previously nothing. e.g. the big bang, and the cambrian explosion.

ISSUE 2: This country was founded on people's rights. People here get too caught up with what they should be able to do (within their rights), and not enough attention to what they should do. It's a lack of morals and values with an overabundance of selfishness that is going to bring this country down.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by satchmo on Mon Oct 31st at 6:12pm 2005

China will become the next Superpower, after the fall of the U.S. supremacy. Eventually, just like the Roman Empire, U.S. will crumble under its own weight, suffering from beauracracy, inefficiency, and complacency.

Oh, and I forgot to mention obesity. The country will literally crumble under its weight. Americans will die from complications of obesity, and it will be a painful, slow death.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Crono on Mon Oct 31st at 6:16pm 2005

I think something that should be pointed out is that the poll they asked was probably skewed, as most polls are.

I'm sure the options were ones that did not allows a combination of creationism and evolution. You can easily believe in both. People don't realize that creationism could have happened back to the creation of our Galaxy and not specifically just our planet.

While, it's commonly believed that it's just us, aren't we special, it could very well not be the case. (If you look at the two planets next to ours, they're very similar in size and amount of elements, the only difference is temperature)

Then again, people always want to pit science against religion, which is ludicrous. Religion requires faith and belief and as they learn more the religion adapts to new found relics or whatever (At the very least the high ups in the religion, who're also scientists usually... not in title of course ... do this most often).

Science, takes a similar amount of faith. Until you find a contradiction, of course. But that's going by the entire idea that, "If there's a contradiction, the whole thing is false" Which is usually true for small things, but you can't adapt that to large ideas.

Doc has good points as well.

As for the credibility of CNN ... that's another discussion. Let's just say, I don't trust news corporations that put up articles without authors.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by satchmo on Mon Oct 31st at 6:23pm 2005

Religion was absolutely essential for people in the Middle Ages. Imagine yourself as a peasant, and you lead a pretty miserable life, doing menial labor until you die. If there's no consolation prize at the end (in heaven), life would be unbearable.

But in the modern day, most of us are fortunate enough to be relatively comfortable. We don't have to haul bricks for a living. In fact, most of us are lucky enough to be mappers. Religion consequently becomes less crucial in our daily lives.

We still have our own share of misery to deal with, so there will always be a need for religion. It just became less significant compared to the ancient times. Even though I am not religious, I wholely support it, as long as it doesn't become a tool for abuses or atrocity.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by rival on Mon Oct 31st at 6:24pm 2005

if you examine US culture fifty years ago it is surprising to see how it has changed. sure back then more people were religous but politics across the pond seemed less gung-ho and people seemed to have more of a 'european' style attitude. i personally think that the US has gone downhill over the years but it is quite a scary thought to think of what will happen if america 'falls' like the roman empire. the world would be a lot different. just think how much the US has influeneced your life (if you dont live there) and what it would be like if that had never happened.
i, too, believe that Eastern powers, such as China and Japan, will be the next superpowers.


Bullet Control: $5000 for a bullet.
&quot;I would blow your f**king head off! ...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving some money... then you a dead man!&quot;



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Seventh-Monkey on Mon Oct 31st at 6:26pm 2005

Charming (edit: directed at satch's last line).

Religion infuriates me. Have we really achieved nothing in the last few thousand years? Some people seem to think so, or 'want so'. I'd like to see them live without anything manufactured by scientists. How long before Americans 'advance' to ritual sacrifices? In our local bookshop, the science books were all moved for 'new-age' books telling people that they'll live forever if they stroke quartz blobs whenever the moon is full. It's disgraceful that people will so hideously take advantage of the gullibility others to such appauling detriment to humanity.

Science may not, at present, be able to explain everything, but so what? Does that mean we should just make stuff up? "Intelligent" design is most certainly unworthy of science lessons. I personally passionately believe that first aid should be taught in schools over religion, in fact; that's influenced by a description of a military doctor of somebody lying dying whilst onlookers stood completely ignorant of the simplest ways to help.

With apologies for drifting slightly off-topic, I think the worst thing I've ever heard about Americans is that some call out firemen, etc., on hoax calls, and then attack them. It's... beyond my powers of speech.



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by ReNo on Mon Oct 31st at 6:30pm 2005

I'm pretty sure there were news stories in the past year about that happening in the UK actually <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">




Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by SpoolE on Mon Oct 31st at 6:30pm 2005

*Sp00L sees Seventh-Monkey*. Anyway, I totaly agree with you, seventh!



I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by BlisTer on Mon Oct 31st at 7:40pm 2005

Issue #1:
? quoting CNN.com:
Only 15 percent thought humans evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years.
Only 15% ? this day and age, that should be around 95% for crying out loud


Issue #2:
? quoting CNN.com:
U.S. school students perform relatively poorly in international tests of mathematics and science. For example, in 2003 U.S. students placed 24th in an international test that measured the mathematical literacy of 15-year-olds, below many European and Asian countries.

Europe has almost always been better in science. This is not necessarely a requirement for development. US is far better in investing and using new knowledge in (new) industry. Examples for this collaboration between science and industry are Silicon Valley and M.I.T.



Issue #3:

i dont know. i will say 2 things on the subject though:

1) science and religion speak a different language, they can never claim "victory" over one another. They can complement one another.

2) CONTRA-evolution. The "hobbit" human bones found on the indonesian island Flores give an interesting insight into evolution. Like homo sapiens, they stem from common ancestors, but have evolved totally different: their brain shrunk and they started walking on both arms and legs again. Wether this is contra-evolution or not i leave to you. for me it is what they required for the island with the steep hills.

Issue #4:

I think it should be discussed as a topic in a religion course, certainly not be treated as a science.




These words are my diaries screaming out loud



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Spartan on Mon Oct 31st at 7:48pm 2005

I'm sure if you were to take that same poll in another country like Italy, Greece, Spain, Saudi Arabia, etc, you'd get the same results and most likely an even higher number of people voting for the 1st option.

Just because a group of people is religious doesn't mean they are stupid. Most scientists are religious, even Albert Einstein was relgious.

I get tired of seeing these types of threads on forums that try to make people in the U.S. or people who don't necessarily believe the same thing sound stupid.





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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Oct 31st at 8:56pm 2005

Yeah, believing in science most certainly does not stop you from being religious. Science takes observable phemenon and translates it into testable theories. However, science cannot give a deeper explanation of why those theories are true beyond the trivial answer "because the data fits". Thats where religion fits in.

Consider an example from physics:
By using some tricky math, you can show that every symmetry in nature implies a conservation law, and the combination of all conservation laws define essentially the entire physics of any situation.

For example, if you do an experiment now, and then do the exact same experiment 1 week from now, you would expect the results to be the same. This is a called a symmetry in time, and if you use math (calculus of variations), it is possible to show that it implies conservation of energy!

Likewise, invariance under spatial translation (you do the experiment in one location, and then go to another location and redo the experiment) implies conservation of momentum.

You can do this for many different symmetries (change in angle, etc) to deduce all those conservation laws that you learn in high-school physics, and more.

However, the question then becomes: why do we have some symmetries and not others? Why is it that there is symmetry in inertial reference frames, but not accelerating frames?

Its like "God" was sitting around at the beginning of the universe, and said, "Let there be this symmetry", "let there be that symmetry", etc, and then that defined the entire physics of the universe.


http://maze5.net



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Dr Brasso on Mon Oct 31st at 9:22pm 2005

you have just been "maze"merized... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

so....about those astros.... ////runs

Doc B....:dodgy:





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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by wil5on on Tue Nov 1st at 6:28am 2005

Issue 1: I'm not surprised by those poll results. Its a freakin internet poll. Most people who think their opinion is worth enough to vote on a CNN internet poll are probably dumb enough to ignore 150 years of scientific research.

Issue 2: This does not surprise me. As has been said before, being at the top breeds complacency.

Issue 3: Most definitely yes, but only among people who dont understand science.

Issue 4: In a perfect world, we could give all ideas equal time in a science class. Like it or not, ID is just as valid as the theory of natural selection. However, considering how kids think of science classes, opening that issue for debate is just going to cause problems. I'd rather have most people blindly following Darwin than the Bible.

To spartan, it's true that being religious doesnt mean you are stupid, however, Einstein, Newton, Galileo, Copernicus and others didn't allow it to get in the way of science. If you let religion get in the way of a scientific understanding of the universe, then you are stupid.

On what you said about physics Maze, it is possible to show mathematically why you cant apply laws of symmetry in an accelerating frame, I just dont have the time or know how to do it right now. Talk to a physics professor, or read some of Einstein's work on the matter.




&quot;If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?&quot;
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: Is the U.S. becoming hostile to science?
Posted by Crono on Tue Nov 1st at 7:37am 2005

Maze, something important to look at though is what our point of view is. Or our frame of reference. (Also, reproducibility is a more common term image)

We've learned that at high levels (our plane) reproducibility is relatively easy. Obviously, as you implied, that doesn't work on a quantum level, because a lot of conservation laws go out the window. (It's weird though, you can gain energy back ... it's weird.)

On a related note, graph out light-years to time (years, seconds, whatever). Then graph on top of it the new axis that would happen by going the speed of light. You'll get some interesting results ... like things farther away happen closer and sooner ... then things that already happened. Weird stuff. (It's a cool graph though, I'll post one up if anyone wants to see it.)

Someone should invent perpetual motion and we'd be able to do some experiments ... on unmanned vessles of course ... 260 years from when we launch ... we'd get some data back ...


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.




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