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Mappers in the Real World
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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by parakeet on Tue Nov 8th at 12:31am 2005

? quote:
I've got my girlfriend hooked on most of my movies and games. She plays World of Warcraft with me, plays Guild Wars sometimes, watched me intently through Metal Gear Solid 3 and a few other games. I prefer girls who at least have a general sense of games. It's not that hard, I can grasp basics of chick stuff (whilst complaining to my girlfriend's enjoyment) so I at least in a relationship would like the same courtesy.

She's the one telling me to go for the headshot or spade in DoD right after she proclaims "That's gross."


beautifully put gorb ;D i totally agree , i think that even if a girl doesn't like a game , she should be able to understand HOW a person could enjoy it. and at least enjoy it with them to some degree.



.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by satchmo on Tue Nov 8th at 12:49am 2005

? quote:
But, you didn't answer my question.

Sorry, I neglected to respond to your inquiry.

She's a programmer who works with Java tools. She primarily deals with big business or government agencies and help them set up programs that can handle database transactions and web input/output/data processing. Some of her previous clients include Merill Lynch and SKG Dreamworks.

She was intrigued by the AI aspect of mapping. I showed her how I setup info_nodes and have the combines hunt the player down and patrol around. But she wasn't interested enough to play the maps. I think one thing preventing her from playing is that she's not used to playing these shooter games, and she dies almost instantly. In addition, she gets motion sickness from FPS.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Crono on Tue Nov 8th at 1:41am 2005

Ah. It all makes sense now.

Most DB programmers care more about theories, as I've experienced. I HATE database programming.

Another hint that she has no interest in any type of gaming is using Java. Not the fastest programming language out there. Relativly easy too <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> (That's not a bad thing, but it's a poor choice for run time instensive stuff ... which isn't databases)

There's a lot of money there though. But, I hate that stuff. AI is harder, too (Not implying she doesn't have any experience in that area, of course). You can't think of anything like how a person thinks of it ... very confusing sometimes. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by ReNo on Tue Nov 8th at 1:44am 2005

And thats just the area I chose to do my honours project in - wonderful. It's certainly interesting stuff though <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">




Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Crono on Tue Nov 8th at 1:52am 2005

Artificial Intelligence?

If so: that's cool. I'm trying to think of what I should do my Masters in. I'm leaning towards either Software Engineering or Artificial Intelligence. I'm sure, eventually I'll finish both. AI would be more fun, and has an easier expansion into a Doctorate.

I'm taking my first AI class this term. So far we've had to make a Sudoku solver. The one I'm behind on is a 9x9 solver (which, just happens to be able to solve many more puzzles of different sizes.)

Maybe I'll post it up here when I'm done. Give some instructions to run it under Windows too.

In the class we have a student defined project to do. I was thinking of doing Tic-Tac-Toe. It'd be a coordinate system for input though. Still not sure about that. One of my friends is doing a "Simulation" of drivers. With routes on city streets and doing stuff with accidents and stuff. Really crazy, if you ask me.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by wil5on on Tue Nov 8th at 5:49am 2005

First-year AI is hilarious, they can barely teach anything because the foundations of the theory havent been introduced properly. It had the most awesome practical though, you had to write an AI bot for a robot fighting game and make it compete against others. The game is at http://robocode.sourceforge.net/, the bots are written in Java (hence youll need Java runtimes and possibly compiler). You should show your wife Satch, she might be more interested in a game that only requires coding skill <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

I've had girls beat me in AoE. I've had girls try to arrange CS matches with me, only to find their pirate copy wouldnt work on Steam. I've shown girls screenshots of my maps, and they asked for copies. There are girls who play games, you just have to find them.




&quot;If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?&quot;
- My yr11 Economics teacher



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by ReNo on Tue Nov 8th at 11:11am 2005

Yeah it's an AI project, I'm going to investigate social AI and develop a system to make background characters in games more believable. I'm sure you've noticed that in most games they either sit about repeating some simple behaviour loop, or patrol a path with little variation. Those that have been more ambitious tend to have their characters act like f**king idiots (eg. Fable), so there is definately room for improvement <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> There are things that demonstrate believable socal AI, but not often running in the background characters of a real time game. Gotta look into some basic psychology papers and presentations to get a grip on key behavioural traits, determine what is feasible to implement and what implementation technique is most suitable, and then develop a demonstration. Should be fun <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

We haven't had any formal classes on AI through our course (yeah...it's a bit of a joke <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">), so its a new area to me but one I find more interesting than the technical side of things...

...at which I suck.

Don't think I knew you were going for a masters Crono, do you have an honours or degree already?

Funny you should mention the Tic-Tac-Toe thing, as we did something somewhat related near the start of the course. We had to write a program that worked out how many legal board layouts there were in Tic-Tac-Toe if crosses start. A lot of people got different answers, but mine were 19683 positions in total, 5869 of them legal, and 820 of them entirely unique. Looking back at that program it's like I didn't know globals could be local <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"> I appear to have used variable names as if they were pointers, when I quite clearly wasn't using any. Madness.




Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by SpoolE on Tue Nov 8th at 11:17am 2005

I met a fellow mapper a week ago!! Go to www.twhl.co.za and check out Slasher101! He goes to a school close to mine.



I would love to change the world, But they would'nt give me the source code.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Underdog on Tue Nov 8th at 1:43pm 2005

I have noticed, at least in my limited way that gaming has shifted. Quite a bit in fact.

I meet only 2 kinds of gamers now. The first is into those stupid X-box or Game cube machine type games. The second is into Pay-to-play fantasy games.

I haven't met any serious gamers in ages. I mean, serious as in the mindset it takes to play a game like Civilization or some other strategy game. In short, a game that requires a bit of dedication other than mindless rampaging. The new games like car driving and such, its so short sighted its sickening.

I have never met another mapper in person. I had met a couple TFC players back in 99/00 but those fellas were also into a bit of mindlessness. Sniper's were all they talked about.

Anyway, I would love to meet someone I could share ideas with. I wouldn't care if it were their home or mine, just the sharing process would be nice.




There is no history until something happens, then there is.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by KungFuSquirrel on Tue Nov 8th at 1:59pm 2005

Underdog, go play some Shadow of the Colossus and then talk about seriousness or short-sightedness...


<A HREF="http://www.button-masher.net" TARGET="_blank">www.button-masher.net</A>



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Underdog on Tue Nov 8th at 2:41pm 2005

? quoting KungFuSquirrel
Underdog, go play some Shadow of the Colossus and then talk about seriousness or short-sightedness...

You talk about an exception when I am talking about the rule?

When was the last time you stood in the computer gaming section of say Wal-Mart and really looked at what the rest of the world is buying?

Sure, I bet there are a whole slough of tough, compelling brain strainers out there but the majority of the buying public is purchasing the brain dead titles.

I didn't mean to pack the whole genre into one almighty wad, but the vast numbers of people who play those machines, are buying mindless rampaging titles.

Course, I did mention:

? posted by Underdog

I have noticed, at least in my limited way that gaming has shifted. Quite a bit in fact.

This quote leaves a lot of room for doubt.


There is no history until something happens, then there is.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by MisterBister on Tue Nov 8th at 3:33pm 2005

I have a few female friends, and a girlfriend, who dont mind playing computer games, as long as the games arent violent and repetetive.




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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by ReNo on Tue Nov 8th at 4:18pm 2005

Is there much out there that is more brain dead than the FPSs that probably make up the bulk of games bought by people on this website? Quite frankly, racing games like Forza or GT4 have a damn sight more depth than most games out there. And even those that don't are hardly without merit - why is it sickening if a game is short sighted anyway? These things exist to provide enjoyment, and if a quick romp around some hack and slash like Dynasty Warriors or Devil May Cry provides it, what is the problem?

Also, why the hell are consoles "stupid"? They are cheap, encompass as many if not more game genres than the PC does, have more approachable and intuitive controllers, feature none of the "installation" nonsense of PC gaming, and don't have any of the technical concerns abot whether it will run on your system. What is at all "stupid" about that? They might not be to your liking for some reason, but I'd be interested to hear your reasoning behind marking them as "stupid".




Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Underdog on Tue Nov 8th at 4:33pm 2005

No.

Last time I took the time to make a comment around here it was thrown in the garbage like yesterdays lunch leftovers. If somehow you personally could guarantee that this did not happen then I might reconsider but since its neither your place to police my or anyone else's posts (short of truly bad people- you know what I mean) I feel little compelled to clarify myself further.

Why I feel certain games are stupid is not anything that need concern you. What you might consider is, I use the word stupid in more than its dictionary definition. For instance, I think its stupid to eat cereal instead of eggs in the morning but thats completely irrational isn't it. I do not think the people are stupid, just the idea. Perhaps thats the answer you seek.

Its not as if I asked you why you feel I am wrong. You may feel such, but I wasn't aware that there was a rule that said I must clarify my sentiments.

I am not being rude, as much as it may sound like it. I am however concerned that you may feel that I need justify myself somehow. I think certain games are dumb. End of story.

If this answer is somehow not good enough, I am sorry but it is the best you are going to recieve today.




There is no history until something happens, then there is.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by ReNo on Tue Nov 8th at 4:44pm 2005

Clearly your mind is set. I completely agree that some games are dumb - its a very valid comment to make. What I don't really understand is how you can say the same thing about an entire system when, for all intents and purposes, it serves the same purpose as a PC in this regard - it lets you play games. You wanna keep your reasons to yourself, fine, but it's a bit sad that you won't aren't even willing to discuss your opinions on something so utterly trivial.

I don't feel you NEED to justify your comment, but I hoped you would. As I said, "I'd be interested to hear...". As far as I'm concerned, if somebody puts out a comment it is hardly unreasonable for a person to ask for the justification behind it.




Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Underdog on Tue Nov 8th at 5:20pm 2005

? quoting ReNo

I don't feel you NEED to justify your comment, but I hoped you would. As I said, "I'd be interested to hear...". As far as I'm concerned, if somebody puts out a comment it is hardly unreasonable for a person to ask for the justification behind it.

And? What about the umpteen individuals that wouldn't? Sure, its entirely possible for the two of us to completely disagree. We could disagree in such a way as to be completely incompatible, yet each of us would part still on speaking terms. On more than one occasion here I was left with the feeling that I was so irrelevant to the people I was conversing with that I wasn't even worth the data required to post my replies let alone the value their time was in wasting it reading my tripe.

I am part of a small group of older people who began life without machines to entertain ourselves with. I do not have the history to draw many opinions on where gaming is concerned because my time is filled with work and other of life's necessities. I began my gaming with an Atari 2600 and a Commodore 16. I decided that I liked the computer best. I have not regretted that decision.

I would like to reach a point in this forum where I can post anything and not have it dismissed out of hand so casually. I am not even concerned that I may be the only one who thinks like I do, I am used to that. What I am not used to is having my opinions chucked in the garbage so easily.

Anyway, that would be a better gift to me than you agreeing.




There is no history until something happens, then there is.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by ReNo on Tue Nov 8th at 5:50pm 2005

I didn't chuck your opinion it in the garbage nor disregard it; I asked for clarification and from what reasoning your opinions stem.




Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Underdog on Tue Nov 8th at 6:46pm 2005

? quoting ReNo
I didn't chuck your opinion it in the garbage nor disregard it; I asked for clarification and from what reasoning your opinions stem.

There were 3 small paragraphs in that reply and this is all you got. Its no wonder I have a hard time conveying.

And your answer, as insignificant as it might be, is contained within the above post.




There is no history until something happens, then there is.



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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Nov 9th at 3:35am 2005

In my opinion, I don't think you should censor yourself because of particular instances in which you felt your opinions were belittled.

Personally, I'm not going to lose any sleep because you didn't feel inclined to share your reasoning, but I think this forum (like any other) would die for lack of dialogue if everyone followed your lead.




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 Re: Mappers in the Real World
Posted by Crono on Wed Nov 9th at 4:02am 2005

Oh, Reno, Reno, Reno. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

You haven't covered any search methods, I assume. There are different types of AI, of course, deterministic, is one method, and THAT is "Produce every possibility ever then cross check the input and give an output". I think that's arguably not AI ... but it is. It's some complex stuff.

What you're talking about doing would be hard. How would you intend to implement it? I would imagine it'd be almost nothing but heuristics (tricks), or are you going to actually implement machine learning (what methods?) <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

I'm not done with my bachelors yet. After I get that done, take my GRE, I can start my masters. Surprisingly, there's not many courses to get a masters, in addition to your bachelors.

My Tic-Tac-Toe game though is you vs. computer. It'll probably be TERRIBLE at playing. I'll look online and see what methods some other people used to beat people. I'm thinking of doing a heuristic ... although, I believe I have to implement some type of machine learning, like .. to get credit. I could have it just follow the player around ... blocking them, taking a "win" if it can, otherwise, taking a block. Also, I'd have to figure out some quantifications for board spaces. Obviously, it's easiest to win by occupying the middle square, since, it's connected to all other squares (There are four possible wins just by occupying that square). I think I'll have to use some probability too. In some form. Maybe that'll be encompassed by the machine learning aspect.

Don't know yet. I still have to finish Sudoku.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.




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