Finger, although it sounded like I was accusing I meant it as a general comment.

When I was much younger, I was a bit different than now. Big headed and arrogant. A very wise person took me aside and told me that forgetting how I got to where I was omitted half of the joy of being there. It took me a long time to see the wisdom of that comment.

Many mappers may say thanks during their initial stages of mapping. A few even continue to do so after they do well. Almost all forget what they were like when they were new.

Still however, to this day I have not seen any mapper who made into a game who acts truly grateful for the assistance and patience given to them free of charge when they began that career.

It would be nice to see, just one.

I do not know you as a person and therefore could not really have meant to single you out. I did however suspect, after looking at your early works, that you must have received a hell of a lot of help from someone/someone's. Even if it was only you placing the items, someone else/else's must have been there.

I will only have to trust that in your case, you are as nice as you sound. You do sound as if you care. " SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Sorry for the pointed comment. It was truly meant generally.

Even levels from 'veteran' level authors tend to supply a readme with a credits section included in the zip file (and/or have credits on their personal website), listing who helped on that particular level. On the SP front page, most of those levels listed as running on the SP server do include a readme with credits.

Regarding crediting those who helped get the mapper a foot in the door of the gamedev industry, as Finger described it's overwhelming due to the individual's determination and ability. The amount of feedback received from the community is actually very very little in comparison to the time invested by the individual himself. Sure, though, it would be nice to tip one's hat to those who've helped along the way, but then surely people would have an enormous list of helpers?! Teachers, family, friends, former work colleagues etc etc will have had every bit as much input in molding the individual and getting him the opportunity.

OMG that stuff is great! Yea I know I have to start using color, I just havent gone to any painting classes. I never color because I see it as a risk, it can either make or break a picture.

If you guys want to quiz me on being creative maybe you guys could ask me to do something and I could see how well I could meet your needs.

That would be neat!

I think you slightly missed my point. I am not accusing mappers of being ungrateful at the time the received their assistance. Not for a moment. Damned few authors would stay in business with an uncouth practice like that. My point mainly is, many forget afterward. For instance, and no I cannot point out any one particular person but, look at the people who made it onto the big leagues. Did their quality remain the same or did it fall off because they are now unable to call upon the very people who got them there? Lets assume that game design has different priorities for the moment. Yes, author A is told to create an area for a certain segment of the game. Will it be on par with the last map he made as a free agent? Most likely not. Its not to say it won't be but, of none of the authors I have ever encountered had great maps with no credits due in a read me.

I think what I am trying so vainly to attempt is to say, I think I have no idea what I mean.

You had every right to defend your position as you saw it. It may simply have been my inability to clearly display my thoughts. I know you have done this. You have an idea. You begin typing and re-read the results thinking "Yeah, that about does it"

When someone later posts some idea that clearly shows a hole in your design, its apparent but somehow not gratifying because you think you plugged all the holes prior.

I treat this forum as if we all are standing in a giant auditorium. We all are chatting at once, and ever so often one of us shouts above the din. My post was just such an event. I wasn't talking to anyone, just over them.

Sorry to be so rude. I should know better than to shout.

Sadly, I am going to have to continue to disagree. I may be proven wrong in the end but for now I will remain steadfastly in my present position.

There were mapping communities before today yet, the games produced that hired these guys didn't reflect the quality the experience granted them.

I assume that the fellas at Valve had prior experience someplace before making HL1 yet the maps were levels below what eventually was released after the the games release. The same holds true with a lot of other games. Halo has some pretty crappy/boxy maps. Hell even Quakes earlier versions had better user made maps than the game shipped with. The only notable exception seems to be anything created with the Unreal engine. It seems that either the talent that came with Unreal was exceptionally picked, or they have a phenomenal feedback acquisition group cause the games maps all were superbly built.

To place myself in a better position I will concede that todays games seem to have some quality in their maps but, I still firmly believe that any author presently hired has a handicap of sorts because of the feedback base no longer available to them from their user made maps days. No gaming maker is ever going to allow maps for a future game to be critiqued by people not within their employ and this will show in the end product. I would have nothing to gain, or lose by being honest in my feedback of any areas I were permitted to look at in any game under construction. I believe however that pressures from within the corporation to make the game would preclude negativity to some degree. I do not believe they would chance total ruin, but I doubt there is any map released with a game that could not be improved dramatically by having it viewed and critiqued by outsiders.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that my observations are outdated and obsolete and perhaps we will all be happier. " SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">

I think you are under valuing my opinion because you are using to short of a timeframe. Extending your comment to include the previous 10 years might bring it to light for you with respect to the point I am attempting to make.

Does HL2 have some awesome maps? You bet. I was more impressed with the map they made for the "Lost Coast' demo than anything made for the game but thats not to say the game was a dump.

I believe that even that map could have benefited from some outsiders. I walked around the map, just to view and noted many places that could have been improved upon.

Are you attempting to somehow tell me that its not within your ability to notice defects? Even within the HL2 maps? I saw plenty. I would hope that if you were going to be in this conversation that you noticed a few too?

I also want to point out that even with outside help mistakes slip through the cracks. No map is 100% completed. One just assumes that the benefit to continuing to look for them is not worth the gain of doing so.

Again, try to expand your view beyond 2004/2005.