Yes I entirely agree, but don't with what you think is the reason behind this (the lack of feedback from the community they previously had access to.)

As ReNo stated, there are totally different pressures while working for a games developer. If the publisher wants something in a particular way, you've gotta do it no matter how stupid you think it is. If the publisher wants it done by "yesterday", that's when you've gotta hand over the assets no matter if you personally think it's done to the best of your ability or not. If the publisher wants twice as many levels yet aren't willing to hire more guys to get the job done sufficiently well enough, you've just gotta get on with it and make do as best you can. If the publisher insists on framerate being maintained on lower spec PCs you've gotta strip out the fancy details, while people making levels in their own spare time can freely choose whether to set the spec requirements higher for his level and make the rooms not as 'boxy'. Etc etc.

Sure, getting in outside people to critique would help, but it's much more due to lack of time and resources and publisher pressure than the reason you're suggesting. Delaying a game by a few months to take into account critiques likely costs $100,000+ per month - a publisher simply isn't going to stump up this sort of extra cash per month. Yet delaying a user-made level by a few months just means people are playing the beta version of a level for a while longer.

When creating user-made levels you're in complete control of what you create, how many levels you do, when you're happy they're finished, and you have access to relatively "finished" technology. You seem to be thinking that there is some sort of Utopia for game development in all professional companies, that people get all the time, resources and technology they need, and it's the lack of feedback which is the problem, when it's usually anything but. Only those developers like Valve who hit the big time with a game selling millions of copies get to do what they want and set their own schedules.

Again, gamedevs are simply not given the time to do this, Underdog, while Joe Blow in his bedroom can take as long as he wants to iron out every problem.

Do you not think that I have made it to my mid 40's without coming across a bit of what you say Keved?

I know about deadlines. I know about reasons that make sense ONLY to the powers that be. I know that s**t rolls downhill, and I am fully aware of who took that dump before gravity set it in motion. (even if the powers that be are unaware of their recent bowel movement:( )

I know what you say is true, and yet still believe that things could be improved. Lets assume that the improvement is belated and the things that the cooperate bigheads made them remove yet the mapper knows must be to make it great I guess.

Anyway, I think the discussion has run its course because in the past few posts no new ideals have been proposed. The lines are clearly defined and continuing will not bring them any sharper into focus.

Perhaps instead of putting me into a position to define why you missed them, you should go back and have a look without the bother of playing. Putting me in a position to prove something is not as desirable as having you rethink your position on your own terms. You do not really need me to point out a wall or a bush do you?

[edit] Damned Snarkpit is being a real prick this morning, some of these pages are taking 3-5 minutes to load.

I had this reply but the Snarkpit went down before I could post. It was in response to your earlier reply.

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Wrong. The very definition of the word team is a group of "LIKE MINDED INDIVIDUALS"

Users will always make better maps because the resource they draw upon is made up of unlike people. Thats not to say that every mapper is competent. I am restricting my comment to the upper 1% (or less) depending on the shear numbers involved of course.

Notice, maps made that are severely critiqued by opposing views ALWAYS turn out better once released. Many fail to be released because of the severity but still those that fail are in many respects better than the ones less critiqued and released.

I am not saying the groups at any gaming company are a collective of dunderheads but their very like mindedness will show in the result. I may not have been on a gaming team, but I have most definitely been on corporate teams of other types. Sometimes you are simply to close to the forest to see the trees.

Anyway, I felt one last reply was essential because your post was so horribly misinformed that it needed to have one.

Are you discounting the great maps made in 98/99 when you posted? Am I not obliged to say that your comment is a bit unfair to think that I restricted my comments to only powerful machine made maps?

There were/are indeed many maps made in both era's to be considered, but I did not restrict my post to the Pentium 4 era made releases.

In fact, didn't we have a similar discussion last month were I mentioned that user made maps created out of stock materials is harder to succeed at? Should this not pose my position on how far thinking I am? I favor the older made maps after all.

Anyway, your comment was at least as unfair with respects to my being narrow minded. " SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">

Hold up just one damned second. Your reply left no room for expansion exactly like mine did yet I am a hypocrite for saying mine? Where do you get off calling me such when there is absolutely no difference in the structure of either of our replies?

If you do not like the word definition of "TEAM" I suggest you use it less.

The fact that you disagree is not the issue now. You have crossed the line into name calling and thats unforgivable from someone who preaches so much as you do about freedoms and whatnot.

I suggest you go back and read your replies in that not so long ago thread and refresh your memory about how conversations advance and stop. You effectively stopped this one.

I have never been a hypocrite in my entire life. Having you say it now doesn't make it any more of a reality than before. In fact, your words are a bit of "talking out the other side of your mouth" now as well.

I suggest you look up the word "TEAM"