Good Riddance
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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Dec 14th at 6:48pm 2005


? quoting Andrei
Tepes-style.

YEEEEEEAH! I agree. I'm serious, the loss of barbarism in our society is one fo the reasons that everyone is all gay and effeminate now. If we valued the things that REALLY make society work, like brute force and REAL justice, society would be much better.

the "Justice" of the united states is not REAL justice. "You killed a husband and father of four, we now sentence you to live in an air-conditioned cell with TV and three meals a day. It will all be free, paid for by the widow of the man you killed and others like her. So as long as you learn to be even more vile than you are now, you can get some ass from the other inmates, and rule the place!"

Justice my ass. They killed Tookie williams and it's less than he deserved.




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by habboi on Wed Dec 14th at 7:19pm 2005


There are worse things in life than death although I agree Satchmo! Bloody criminals kill someone and go to prison for 5-6 years and then they're free again :

America has an effective legal system!





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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by pepper on Wed Dec 14th at 8:19pm 2005


I disagree with killing people in such a way with the deaht panelty. The executer is for me just as bad as the person he executes. Cant see anyway how it can be good. For this im glad they stopped those brutality's here quikly after WWII. I believe of all the Nazi leaders that where supposed to be executed here only 2 or 3 got really in front of the fire platoon.




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Andrei on Wed Dec 14th at 8:53pm 2005


The last execution on my little island was in 1989. He deserved it <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/evilgrin.gif"> .




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by satchmo on Wed Dec 14th at 9:45pm 2005


If Tookie killed all of your loved ones (your parents, all your siblings), would you still be so forgiving?

For me, I would want the bastard to die. In fact, if the law allows it, I would like to kill him with my own hands.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Dec 14th at 9:57pm 2005


Well, no, obviously everyone here would be extremely upset and angered if they were put in that position, but in my opinion we should be thinking logically when it comes to issues like that. If we let passions intervene, ever murder would be answered by more murders/deaths which would just beget more violence in the end. At some point, violence has to stop, and thats why we have laws and governments in place, to prevent anarchy.

I can't help but think of Gandhi's famous dictum: "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by satchmo on Wed Dec 14th at 10:52pm 2005


I know, you and Gandhi are right. I know that's the right thing to do, but I just don't know whether I can bring myself to forgive them.

I am definitely a person driven more by passion than by reason. It makes me who I am, and I am not sure whether I can ever change my nature. It works to my advantage sometimes (allowing me to achieve goals with superhuman motivation), but I've suffered the consequences of my passion many times in the past (I slept with one of the nurses in residency, creating a huge scandel).

I wish the world has more people like you and Gandhi. We wouldn't have any problems with crime or terrorism if that's the case.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Dec 14th at 10:59pm 2005


I wasn't trying to build myself up to the level of Gandhi, by any means. Like I said, everyone here would be extremely upset and angered if they were put in that position (myself included), but thinking about it calmly right now I would hope my desire for bloody revenge would be restrained by laws, because who knows how many of Tookie's family members I would kill before I felt avenged.

Gandhi is the stuff of legends, I'm just an online forum poster.




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by satchmo on Thu Dec 15th at 12:56am 2005


But at least you aspire to be like him. I have serious doubt whether I can even contemplate forgiveness to someone like that.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Biological Component on Thu Dec 15th at 1:47am 2005


Anyone can surpass Ghandi, if they truly desire to do so. Most people haven't such a strong will however. Unfortunately most people never live up to what they could have been had they just made the effort. All it takes sometimes is believing in yourself.

Having said that, I agree with you Satchmo,

"Good Riddance."




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Thu Dec 15th at 8:16pm 2005


I just saw a flyer on campus about raising awareness of the death penalty and it had information about Tookie's life.

Apparenlty, after he was put in jail he became very anti-gang and even wrote childrens books to discourage youths from joining gangs. He has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize more than once.

Here is a nytimes.com article about him from 2000, if anyone cares to see a different perspective:

December 6, 2000 Antigang 'Role Model' Is Up for a Nobel and Execution By EVELYN NIEVES

NORTH RICHMOND, Calif., Nov. 30 ? The old, dingy house that serves as an after-school center for this impoverished East Bay town was alive with happy noise. Children crammed both floors, their presence masking the shabbiness of the furniture and filling the empty spaces on the yellowed walls. They pecked away on computer keyboards, sat at school desks finishing compositions and stuffed themselves into a corner room to hear Martika Pittman, 10, read aloud from a book by an ex- gang leader now on death row:

"Many gang members think they respect themselves," Martika read. She let each word hover in the air before reading the next. "They think they have good self-esteem because they feel good about themselves. But they are wrong. So were we."

The younger children sat cross- legged on the floor around her, frozen in attention. They barely flinched when adult visitors walked in. Not until they heard that the very author they had been reading, Stanley (Tookie) Williams, was on the telephone from San Quentin did their attention to his book "Gangs and Self-Esteem" waver. As word spread, the children, about 60 in all, came running from every which room to see if they too might talk to Tookie. "Tookie! Tookie!" they shrieked, the way other children might react to Michael Jordan. "Let me say hi!" "No, let me!"

When Mr. Williams, a co-founder of the South Central Los Angeles Crips who was convicted of killing four people in 1981, was nominated for a 2001 Nobel Peace Prize recently, people were stunned. But not the children here at North Richmond's Neighborhood House. They read his books, most of which are subtitled "Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence." They write essays on his themes, draw pictures to illustrate the morals of his stories.

They are also part of his brainchild, the Internet Project for Street Peace, which allows them to talk to Somali immigrant children in Switzerland, through e-mail and chat rooms, about how to avoid gangs and trouble. At Neighborhood House, the Tookie antigang message is reinforced on a daily basis.

To others, Mr. Williams' nomination for the most prestigious humanitarian award in the world has a larger meaning. It has drawn praise around the world from those opposed to capital punishment, and scorn from those who support it. And still others wonder whether a convicted murderer is an appropriate role model. ("What a swell message for kids," wrote a columnist for The San Francisco Chronicle. "You can gun down four people and still turn your life around.") And on death row at San Quentin, about a 30-minute drive from North Richmond and Neighborhood House, the nomination has inspired some inmates to want to do something besides wait around to die, Mr. Williams said.

"It's beautiful," he said in a phone interview conducted from Neighborhood House in which his voice, soft and low, was barely audible above the din of the children.

A 19-year veteran of death row ? he denies committing the shootings, which occurred during two robberies in Los Angeles, and is requesting his third evidentiary hearing ? Mr. Williams spends most of his time in his 9-by-4-foot cell writing, using his metal bed frame as a desk. "One's existence," he said, "is really determined by one's mental train of thought."

He has had eight children's books published, most for the early grades, and has finished four more, including his memoirs.

Barbara Becnel is the executive director of Neighborhood House, a nonprofit community organization that runs a drug rehabilitation center, distributes free food and offers other humanitarian services to this very poor, mostly black community. She also acts as Mr. Williams's editor, co-author and conduit to the world. She met him in 1993 while researching an article on black youth gangs for Essence magazine. The research led her to start writing a book on the history of the Crips and their archrivals, the Bloods. "Everyone told me I had to go talk to Big Took," she said.

He co-founded the Crips at age 17 (his co-founder, Raymond Washington, was killed on the streets in 1979) and landed on death row 10 years later. "He was quite remorseful of his Crips legacy," Ms. Becnel said of their first meeting. "He wanted to reverse his legacy. He told me he wanted to write children's books that preached an antigang message."

Ms. Becnel said they first worked together on a video message that was played at a summit meeting between the Crips and the Bloods. The five-and-a-half-minute message was the hit of the occasion. "All 400 people in the audience were at the edge of their seats," Ms. Becnel said. "There was total silence. When the screen went dark, 400 people leaped out of their chairs and started clapping. I thought, if he could command that level of attention, maybe we were on to something."

In 1996, Ms. Becnel was able to sell the idea of a children's book by a death row inmate to the Rosen Publishing Group, which specializes in books for disadvantaged children that are distributed to schools and libraries. Proceeds from the books are funneled into the Internet Project for Street Peace and other antigang projects. Mr. Williams writes his books in his cell and dictates the writing to Ms. Becnel. The latest is a book for middle-school students that offers a harsh view from death row, "Life in Prison." His four unpublished books await her editing.

The Internet Project, which led to Mr. Williams's nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize, began when Ms. Becnel told him that the Crips gang was spreading to South Africa and elsewhere. Although Mr. Williams has no access to the Internet, based on what he gleaned from television shows, he told her he wanted to use the Internet to reach children around the world. Ms. Becnel saw the idea through the financing and realization. She also monitors his Web site, www.tookie.com for him.

Mario Fehr and five other members of the Swiss Parliament put forth Mr. Williams's Nobel nomination after learning of his Internet project. "With his work, he has saved the lives of a lot of children around the world," Mr. Fehr said. "Secondly, I think that no matter what mistakes a high-risk youth has made, he can change the direction of his life for the better and give a good example to young people. And last but not least, I strongly oppose the death penalty and I hope that the discussion about the nomination will help to push the death-penalty debate to a higher level."

Mr. Williams' shot at winning the prize is long at best. But at Neighborhood House, where many of the students come from troubled families that know of gangs and violence firsthand, the consensus is that Mr. Williams deserves the award. The other day, the children were writing him congratulatory cards, as though he had already won the prize.

"Dear Tookie," wrote Dante Lee, 13, "I think you learned your lesson and you care about us, and that's why you write the books. Thank you."

"I believe it," Dante said, nodding. "Me too!" said Ronald Weathersby, 14. "Me too!" a half-dozen, then a dozen, other children chimed in. "Me too!"






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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by satchmo on Thu Dec 15th at 8:49pm 2005


The "transformation" did not occur right away. For a long period of time, he was one of the most vicious inmate in prison. He caused tremendous amount of mayhem in jail, and even continued his gang activities from within the prison.

He only changed his ways after one of many stints of solitary confinement. I don't believe he truly changed. If he did, he would have admitted his guilt and sought forgiveness. What would a cunny, sly gang leader do in prison? Instead of fighting against the system, he played the system and his supporters like puppets. He feigned kindness and his peace-loving ways. No one likes to stay in solitary confinement. He's smart enough to figure out a way out of the harsh punishment.

Heck, he almost conned his way out of his death penalty. I have absolutely no sympathy for him.




"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by ZombieLoffe on Thu Dec 15th at 10:59pm 2005


I still believe that no one is of definate evil. People do things they need to do.
I mean, no one would kill someone else just for the sake of it (Unless they're crazy, but that again isn't evil), they do it for money, status, fear or whatnot. One can question the reasons of murder from certain individuals, but I think everyone feels sorrow and guilt because of their actions. It's just human.

Edit: Reading through my own post, it didn't make much sense. My point is: No one is naturally, unchangably evil.





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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by satchmo on Thu Dec 15th at 11:56pm 2005


True. But if people murder others for power or greed, it's still wrong. And that's evil to me.


"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge



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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by fraggard on Fri Dec 16th at 3:17am 2005


? quote:
Anyone can surpass Ghandi, if they truly desire to do so.


It's "Gandhi" and not "Ghandi".

Gandhi was the family name of a great man, namely Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

Ghandi (or Ghandy) was the family name of a bunch of pretenders who tried to use the popularity and fame of the name to their own political ends, and now pass themselves of as Gandhis.




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Re: Good Riddance
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Fri Dec 16th at 4:39am 2005


? quote:

? quote:
Anyone can surpass Ghandi, if they truly desire to do so.


It's "Gandhi" and not "Ghandi".

Gandhi was the family name of a great man, namely Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

Ghandi (or Ghandy) was the family name of a bunch of pretenders who tried to use the popularity and fame of the name to their own political ends, and now pass themselves of as Gandhis.


That's low.

@Satchmo I see what you're saying, and I agree. Desperation can do a lot to change a man in the moment. But the moment they're out of danger....

I just thought it would be beneficial to post that article to at least get some other views into the discussion.





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