My trouble with the Law.
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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Mar 1st at 9:12pm 2006


I don't understand how devleopers get angry if its an obscure title that they no longer even ship out... but for the newer titles I see how its digging into their profits.




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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Mar 1st at 9:22pm 2006


I don't. Its as archaic as "Personal property taxes" I have to pay each year.

Once the item is sold once, all monies that can ever be expected were incurred at that point. You cannot ever expect that a game that is sold multiple times to be part of the payment process of the original design team.

Now, I might be persuaded to acknowledge some money loss due to someone making multiple copies of a game and selling those. If someone is buying them, they should go to the designers. Any single/original title once sold is 100% out of the design teams purview. PERIOD.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by ReNo on Wed Mar 1st at 9:27pm 2006


I don't imagine they do get annoyed if it's a title that is no longer published or something, it's more due to the brand spanking new games being available at cheaper prices second hand, bringing in just as much money to the retailers without any going to the publishers/developers.

I don't think there is anything wrong with selling on a game - I've traded in plenty of my own in the past - but I can appreciate why it pisses off developers and publishers, who have slaved away for years on a game and then not to receive a penny for a purchase because the person decided to buy a second hand copy.






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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Mar 1st at 9:28pm 2006


I don't mean to disagree with you on everything today Orpheus but the logic you used when talking about making multilple copies and selling those also applies to a person who is simply selling a used game. Say a game comes out today. I buy it and don't like it and decide to sell it to someone tomorrow. The person buying it from me would otherwise have bought it at a store, and so the game company loses money. I come out ahead and the company comes out behind... which woudn't seem like such a bad thing except in the long run a game company needs money to continue to produce good products.




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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Mar 1st at 9:30pm 2006


wow.....i never thought this thread would derail so.....nicely

*posted by Orpheus

and Doc, I understood you the first time. Somehow though, I was infuriating your point without meaning to. If it helps, I'll buy your cd and burn it in effigy. As long as you get your piece of the pie, I am happy.

i knew ya did sir, i just wanted there to be no doubt....but the burning the cd thing well, thats another whole issue...

personaly, after i get my unit slice, i have no more to say about it.....that was part of my point....resell it as used....well hell, it is used....you dont like the cd and wanna sell it to yer bro, go for it....all good. s**t, some of the best records i own are from recycled shops....its a great cottage industry. i just have a problem with the honorability end of it when people start duplicating for profit man....my profit.

*posted by Orpheus

I spend hundreds on games each year and not a single one of you hesitates calling me pirate.

that sir is simply...bulls**t. you know damn well ive never called you anything but an asshole, and even then it was in jest.....

I don't understand how devleopers get angry if its an obscure title that they no longer even ship out... but for the newer titles I see how its digging into their profits.

agreed atm.....cottage industry....resale is one thing....reproduction for profit is another

and yer not depriving anyone of anything fishbutt.....thats another part of my point.

Doc B...

EDIT>>>how ya like the new avatar eh?....seemed somehow.....fitting... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">





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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Mar 1st at 9:42pm 2006


? quoting Addicted to Morphine
I don't mean to disagree with you on everything today Orpheus but the logic you used when talking about making multiple copies and selling those also applies to a person who is simply selling a used game. Say a game comes out today. I buy it and don't like it and decide to sell it to someone tomorrow. The person buying it from me would otherwise have bought it at a store, and so the game company loses money. I come out ahead and the company comes out behind... which wouldn't seem like such a bad thing except in the long run a game company needs money to continue to produce good products.

Thats pure crap bud. The one title you bought had its money sent to the people who made it. Why in the world would you expect them to receive yet another bit of cash simply because the next person bought your disk? You are no longer using it, and most likely never ever will again so there are not TWO owners, only one. the new person.

So lets carry your warped sense of value to the next logical step.

Lets pass a law that clearly states "Once you've bought it, you can never depart from it on penalty of.. Whatever you feel is a just penalty"

So the people selling the game can sell many more titles?

Now I realize that this whole conversation is losing most of its intelligence because text is making me look stupid/assholeish to you, and vice versa.

Everything you have typed today sounds so absurd that I cannot imagine how an intelligent being could say it. The only thing I can say is, text is making you sound dumb.

and

I am nearly positive that on some level you are thinking the exact same thing about me.

ain't life a bitch...

? quoting Dr Brasso

EDIT>>>how ya like the new avatar eh?....seemed somehow.....fitting...

Actually, when I think of Doc Brasso, I see a Mel Gibson in Mutiny on the bounty type. Not some has been sailor wannabe.

You are much more respected than you seem to wanna let on bud.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Mar 1st at 10:21pm 2006


I don't think we should make it illegal to sell your stuff, but at the same time you have to admit selling stuff second-hand cuts into the profits of the game companies.

Sure, some people will never buy a new title because of the cost. The game company therefore doesn't lose any money when these people buy a second-hand game since they would never have bought a new title in the first place.

But there are people (the majority I would say) who would have paid the company full price for the product if there were no second hand copies available. By reselling your game to these particular people, the company doesn't make any money off them. 1 copy is sold instead of 2. It's pretty simple.

And honestly, I don't think I'm coming across as an asshole . And if you think I'm dumb, that's your opinion which you're entitled to, but I'd be willing to bet many people think the same way I do about this, or at least would be willing to admit I have a point.




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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Mar 1st at 10:39pm 2006


? posted by Addicted to Morphine

I don't think we should make it illegal to sell your stuff, but at the same time you have to admit selling stuff second-hand cuts into the profits of the game companies.

well, lets see.....when they set up their initial prospectus for the endeavour, they take a set of numbers to use as targets, they have to to get the backing, and all with some assurances of one kind of another....in my case, we had to pay off the debt before any real paychecks were signed.....

now, i must qualify this at this point by saying, we did not pay off our debt solely by cd sales.....s**t no....it sucked, it tanked, and we ended up on the road to help expedite contract resolution.....i digress..

.....and then the real profit starts to roll in....its all clear, and comes in big chunks....and as quick as it comes in, it goes away.....thats the way it works for most "real" musicians, and why basicly any real road musician youve ever known is a tight fisted sob, with an attitude as far as money goes...guaranteed... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> the window of opportunity closes in most cases as quickly as it opens.....

bologna and "hand" sandwiches i heard them called once...lol it aint bulls**t...

point is atm, they set targets, and ones that also include their minimum and maximum profits, and anything after that is pure and simple greed....

anyay, i hope that sheds a bit of light....

Doc...:dodgy:





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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Mar 1st at 11:09pm 2006


I hear what you're saying Doc. I wasn't trying to focus on whether its right or wrong for game companies to want more money than they're getting... I just wanted to make a point that in many cases (but not all) when someone buys a used game the game company sells one less game. I'm talking specifically about new game videogame titles, which is what ReNo brought up.

Oh and popeye is great and I like the new avatar.




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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by fishy on Wed Mar 1st at 11:46pm 2006


i bought a table. it's a very nice, hand crafted, table, on which the maker has no-doubt spent many hours of careful work. if i ever decide to sell the table, should i contact the maker and offer him all, or just some, of the money?


i eat paint



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Thu Mar 2nd at 12:14am 2006


No. I think in that situation offering money to the original craftsman would be ridiculous.

Why is it videogame companies get angry when their products are resold, but table craftsment don't?




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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Dr Brasso on Thu Mar 2nd at 12:19am 2006


you sound like bill gates fishman...<img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">

*posted by fishman

i bought a table. it's a very nice, hand crafted, table, on which the maker has no-doubt spent many hours of careful work. if i ever decide to sell the table, should i contact the maker and offer him all, or just some, of the money?

no you shouldnt....thats resale

if its a unique table design, and you start mass producing exact replicas of that table, and heres the kicker, if i knew you were going to mass produce them, then its no ones fault but mine if i didnt get the cash out of it as a good businessman should.

if you however, build them without my knowledge or consent, then there is a problem....

thats reproduction....business "birds and bees", 101

Doc...:dodgy:





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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Orpheus on Thu Mar 2nd at 12:38am 2006


Just once I would like to come out of one of our debates with the butter side up on my bread.

If I have ever, or never said it before please allow me to rectify the oversight.

Thank you, everyone for being as tolerant as you are for one old has been mapper.

If it weren't for Snarkpit, I'd be all out of websites.

*notices groan from back row*

Oh well. Can't have everything. *shrugs*





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by ReNo on Thu Mar 2nd at 12:59am 2006


It's certainly an interesting point about why games companies see it as unfair that second hand sales hinder their profits, but most furniture or other tangible goods manufacturers wouldn't. I don't really have an answer either. Maybe it's something to do with the fact that it isn't really the item itself you are paying for (which it is in the case of furniture) but the experience that the developers produced. In the case of a table, or a car, it's the physical object that holds the worth. Once that physical object is completed and put out the door, it is its own single entity that holds its own worth, and all of it rightfully belongs to the buyer. In the case of a game or movie or music, it is the non-tangible content held inside the object that holds the worth, and can we really say that we own the textures, character models, game code, graphics engine, sound effects, etc...? Quite what difference that makes, I'm not sure, but maybe it is a worthwhile differentiation to make.

As for the morality of buying second hand games or not, I try to buy first hand out of principle but can appreciate that most people wouldn't give a s**t. I like to see my money, even just the small part cut of it that they receive, going to the original developers, whom I feel deserve it more than anybody else.






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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Stadric on Thu Mar 2nd at 1:37am 2006


I get it.
When you give away a game, you won't go out and buy another of that game.
When you give away a table, you will go out and buy another table to replace that one you gave away.

IRT Filesharing
I'm kind of greedy, I don't pay for my music, and it's because I cannot afford my vast music collection(nearing 10Gb). Now, before you start flaming me for being t3h [r1m1n@l!1!1!11!1, here's my explanation to why it's not so bad.

1) Without filesharing, I wouldn't have your product, so it's not like I'm cheating you out of money.
2) Without the cheapness of filesharing, people would experiment less with music, thanks to free music, I now like bands I would never have enen heard of without it.(who here has ever heard of "Pet Shop Boys"? I have...now)
3) If I like the song enough, I buy the CD either for myself or for someone else as a gift.
4) Now that I like bands like I mentioned in (2), I am very very willing to go to various concerts when/if I have the money, and they're local.(Now if Curt Kolbain, Jimmy Hendrix, and Jerry Garcia could rise from their graves and put on the show of the century, I would pay for that twice!)

Besides, the Grateful Dead were encouraged people recording their songs at their concerts.

On another topic of filesharing, I also downloaded a helluva lot of Mystery Science Theatre 3000, now I love the show, and have paid for DVDs.(Those things are expensive too!)

That's all I'm going to say for now.



Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by ReNo on Thu Mar 2nd at 1:47am 2006


You won't go and buy another copy of that game no, but then you are unlikely to go and buy another instance of the same table either, are you? Also, you may well buy a different game to replace the sold on game, just as you would buy a replacement table. I don't really agree with your point.

I hope your comment about the Pet Shop Boys was meant to be sarcastic <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif">






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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Orpheus on Thu Mar 2nd at 2:22am 2006


The funny thing is, I agree with everything the copy right laws are supposed to protect up to the point of "lost revenue"

I just cannot seem to wrap my mind around that. Yeah, I know what it means, but its like God. I do not believe it exists except in peoples belief system.

I imagine that my limited knowledge of computers is costing me money every day because I could be working for people who pay more because I knew computers. Sadly, I am not working for them and I have only a rudimentary knowledge of the machines. Should I cry about lost revenue?

I am not asking for another definition of the idea. Its been hashed to death. I just felt like rambling and the idea of losing something you never knew you had or never DID have is just ludicrous.

Its past my bed time. I have to be at the Vet at daybreak AM. My 3 year old Stallion is about to be rudely awakened to the realities of "Guilding"

Nite-nite fellas.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Mar 2nd at 2:50am 2006


Here's the whole thing. People who pirate the songs are NOT GONNA BUY THE CD! They would just steal it from the store! If they're not gonna buy it anyway, how is that LOSING money? You can't LOSE money you never had.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Crono on Thu Mar 2nd at 3:25am 2006


It's odd, because every industry looks at it differently.

Let me ask this question: you know those time trial demos you get of programs ... would you consider it "illegal" or "wrong" to simply remove the time restriction?

There are also some things in software like "pay X amount to get this package option!" and if you buy it they give you a code which unlocks that package ... meaning you already had it.

Is that any different? Same? I'm wondering because these distinctions based on what the product actually is is annoying as hell.

I agree, Nickel, there's no guarantee that the people obtaining your product would have bought your product otherwise ... perhaps it sucks. Owning it for fun is one thing, but, paying for it would have never happened in any situation. (Just a point of view, not a statement of my personal view.)



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: My trouble with the Law.
Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Mar 2nd at 4:11am 2006


I dunno, Crono. I think that anything the createor asks you to pay for, you SHOULD pay for it if you want it. If they're being ridiculous, they will go out of business or people will pay for thier product and grumble about it. Like Gasoline.


I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com




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