Would you Punish, or Pray?
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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Gollum on Tue Mar 14th at 11:52pm 2006


? quoting Orpheus
*looks around*

My, I feel so small.

Sorry Jon, I have pumped this thread full of quite a lot of pretty high-level philosophy <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">

In my defence, it's been a long time since I touched the stuff, and it's hard to resist bingeing once you taste an old drug <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Besides, the quality of discussion at the Snarkpit is truly uplifting. Not, of course, that I judge the quality of discussion only on philosophy, but it's refreshing to find such intelligent discussion of my much-maligned, ignored, and ridiculed subject <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">





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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Mar 15th at 12:01am 2006


Nah, don't apologize Mike. I had a very bad day, and its showing up in here.

I had one of those days where you feel like an experiment gone badly. Nothing I did went right, and it was as if, it were supposed to be that way.

*sighs*

I am royally bitchy right now, and.. I need to go away before I do something stupid. It seems, I get into the most trouble here, whenever I show up pissed.

/ goes and sits in a corner and contemplates my exact place in this world.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Mar 15th at 12:15am 2006


ok......very nicely stated mike, i surely have missed this kind of ....banter....now, "would you punish, or pray?" ////runs

relax jon, thou art as miniscule as i...

Doc B...

oh, and btw, in the big picture, none of us really amount to dry s**t anyway....but, ya might as well enjoy it....hows that for an "ethical" stance??... <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">





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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Gollum on Wed Mar 15th at 12:26am 2006


? quoting Dr Brasso
ok......very nicely stated mike, i surely have missed this kind of ....banter....now, "would you punish, or pray?" ////runs

Neither; I would pity.

*polishes halo*





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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed Mar 15th at 12:35am 2006


<img src=" SRC="images/smiles/rofl.gif"> ....needs Brasso...<img src=" SRC="images/smiles/heee.gif">

Doc B...:dodgy:





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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Mar 15th at 1:09am 2006


Good points. I'll reply when my Quantum final is turned in...



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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Mar 15th at 2:11am 2006


To finish my big part in the discussion from earlier, I don't truly think that EVERYONE pushes thier views on everyone else. I think that anyone who expresses an opinion publicly is only doing that. But it seems that anytime I express my views as a Christian, people tell me that I am pushing my philosophy off on them. Now, granted, strict Christian values such as mine do require a certain amount of "pushiness" but I really don't think it is any more of an instance of pushing than atheism or anything else, if you truly beleive it.

Now for the new twist on the thread, I just think that you can't beleive that something is the right way to be, and yet tell people that when they do the opposite, that it is okay.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Wed Mar 15th at 5:08am 2006


Ok. The exam isn't done, but my brain has been thoroughly curdled for now...

The premises:

On Premise 2, I did not intend for my opinion to come off as "we are perfect and evolution is finished". I take it for granted that such a process of optimization is ongoing, and by nature prone to reach local rather than global maxima.

On Premise 3, I disagree that it is fundamentally flawed. What is history if not the the "fossil record" of human society? Do you think it is invalid to examine historical trends and events as a way of evaluating the success of a particular culture? My argument in favor of ethical code X is merely that it has historically been correlated with the success of society Y, which uses it. Obviously correlation is not causation, but I think sufficiently plausible mechanisms exist to make the conclusion of at least partial causality a good one.

Defining "Success"

I would not define the success of an ensemble as the simple quantity of agents it has amassed. This is a key point in my theory which I neglected to define before, and to be honest, had not fully formulated. I define the key fitness criteria for a society as:

  1. The ability of the ensemble to compete with others for resources, both natural materials and valuable agents.
  2. The ability of the ensemble to provide for the well-being (resources per agent) of the individual agents.

These two goals are deceptively simple, but the fact that they are mutually conflicting in certain circumstances gives rise to a vast array of complex behavior. Take the population example. One way to get more resources is to produce more agents (China), but in doing so you defeat criteria 2. Likewise, one way to increase the well-being (resources per agent) of the individual agents would be to decrease their total number (Scandinavia), but likewise, this would be to the detriment of criteria 1. I stated before as a fundamental premise that all agents are alike. Let me restate that: all agents are alike on average. Thus, one mechanism by which both criteria 1 and 2 might be maximized is through the selections of especially valuable agents.

These two rules are a statement of the basic conflict in all evolutionary systems: the survival of the agent vs. the survival of the ensemble. Certain ensembles go very far in one direction or another... Tigers in contrast to mosquitoes. Anarchy in contrast to Communism.

Do not confuse my ideas of cultural evolution with biological evolution. It is in fact crucial to my theory that "society" is a learned set of rules, not a genetic hand-me-down. It is not critical that the individual agents be biologically successful for the culture to achieve it's goals. High levels of immigration are totally equivalent to a high birth rate so long as the perturbation to the society caused by the influx of foreign agents is not so grate as to cause it to loose it's identity. This mode of societal "reproduction" could indeed be thought of as a sort of abstract sexual mechanism, mixing aspects of multiple cultures, thus making it a potentially more healthy mode of propagation than the "asexual" sort you would get from simple biological success of the agents within a single society.

I'm not sure what you mean about the subjective vs. the objective components of ethics. Perhaps you could provide an example? Off the cuff though, I would suggest that any ambiguity could be ascribed to the conflict between ensemble level and agent level success.





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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by G4MER on Wed Mar 15th at 2:10pm 2006


I voted other.. I would have them Branded. Across the forehead, on both hands, on both feet and across there buttocks.. If you still sleep with that person and get what ever it is they have.. then you deserve it, and shall be branded.



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Re: Would you Punish, or Pray?
Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Mar 15th at 3:46pm 2006


MoneyShot: don't say that they "deserve it" because people will get on to you about it. That is actually the way I feel, only on a "rougher" level. Everyone should be as careful as if the person they are sleeping with IS branded. Since we don't have that system.


I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com




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