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You need to watch this video
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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Tue May 9th at 11:23pm 2006

? quoting Gwil
Empirical imperialism produces ugly results. Unfortunately for the US, their golden age of domination exists under lights, cameras, action!


Unlike British atrocities that happen via wooden ships and took months to be heard about?

/giggles

You're funny Gwil.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Tue May 9th at 11:30pm 2006

The funny thing there is you're bang on the money! <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Governments - if 9/11 conspiracies are true, even disregarding that, have always been a bunch of self serving underhand c*nts. Just a shame for the US they did it in the age of mass knowledge..





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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Tue May 9th at 11:38pm 2006

I know that it will never happen but, I wish that wars, both foreign and domestic were fought by the people who cause them.

My fear is that someday the US will go to war with a country that I have dear friends in.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Tue May 9th at 11:50pm 2006

Is this the right time to make a "War - HUH! What is it good for? ABSOLUTELY NUTTHIN'" post?

I guess not :P

War is a horrible, horrible thing. At least in modern times, the technological superiority saves lives and forces surrender. I would never want to live in a time (although I guess we do, looking at African conflicts) when "total war" is still an accepted norm.








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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Tue May 9th at 11:59pm 2006

You know whats funny when you think about it? Almost all the world is into gun control except the states. I am betting that no other country has taken that into account when they contemplate invading US soil.

If you ever get the chance, watch the old movie "Southern Comfort"

It will open your eyes about defending ones home turf.

[edit] Link edited for movie.





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 12:13am 2006

The gun control for/against arguments are always essentially flawed. They never take into account relative crime, or indeed crime with weapons. US "gun culture" exists/existed because there was a society which demonstrated extremes of rich/poor in a modern context, before anyone else.

Most of the personal weapons posessed by US citizens would be worth piss all in a real war. The need to bear arms was created out of European liberal thought, and perpetuated by the "civil codes" that consumerism and capitalism created (along with racial segregation, too, but thats another issue)

Also bear in mind the United States, bar Civil War, Mexico, Pearl Harbour and 9/11 has never been attacked directly, let alone invaded. I for one support the U.S. citizens' right to bear arms, but not a basis of homeland protection - merely one of common sense. As long as you can police the issues which relate to misuse of firearms, you can police the potential crimes that arise from them.






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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Wed May 10th at 12:21am 2006

? quoting Gwil
.
Most of the personal weapons posessed by US citizens would be worth piss all in a real war.

Gwil, uhhh, do you wanna rephrase this? If you have some image of a bunch of straw chewing blokes with a shotgun you're sadly mistaken. Many of the hunting weapons far outstrip the normal issue military weapons. Think about this, many weapons are designed to bring down big game, not people.

I am not willing to argue because you would have to see what I mean but... You're wrong.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 12:24am 2006

They wouldn't, simple as. If you can quote me statistics how many people posess mortars, RPG's, grenades, rifle-mounted grenade launchers, deployable machine guns, aircrafts, armoured assault vehicles, short range tactical missiles, I would be happy to believe you.

Citizens with an M-16 and a safe full of ammunition a war do not make.

Adding onto the fact I could add so many more weapons that make modern warfare, I am fairly certain that most of the US gun nuts will not posess, or could not easily access funds or sellers for the most potent of weapons in infantry based warfare.

If an invasion of the United States was to take place by say, the UAE or China, a bunch of NRA members with souped up assault rifles and years of rifle range practice would never, ever be able to take on professional soldiers in volume or experience. The main reason the U.S. and coalition forces struggle with the war in Iraq (or at least it is a major factor) is that a lot of them are but teens, or have never been in a war where they have been at so much risk. Peackeeping in Kosovo or the earlier Gulf Wars are nothing compared to mujahadeen who have been attacking Mi-17s with RPGs when a lot of these coalition soldiers were but a twinkle in their fathers eye.






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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Wed May 10th at 12:28am 2006

Really?

No, I will not quote you stats. But, I live here and all the heavy artillery in the world will not win you a battle on your home turf. lest we forget Vietnam or Korea.

You have your image of what makes/wins wars. I have training in war. I would not bet that the private citizen here in the States couldn't give any country a run for their money.

[edit] remember, private citizens have only one rule.. To win. Militaries have orders to follow.

Anyway, its moot because I hope to never live long enough to find out.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 12:29am 2006

I'm certain.

A bunch of NRA gun nuts would never defeat a well planned and coordinated military assault. Again, to relate back to Iraq - the US is being kept on the "look over the shoulder" (as with Vietnam) they go in with a hell of a lot of firepower and no real experience of warfare on the home continent. The laws on gun control in the USA are so much more restrictive to theatres such as SE Asia (free flowing Communist corruption) or the Arabian Peninsula (too much war to mention).

War training counts for something - not to belittle it, but, war experience as a fact of life counts for a lot more. There's a lot more to shooting a man dead and having the inclination to carry out cold blooded attacks on say, a convoy, than a training exercise. Bearing in mind a lot of the countries the US has intervened in the past half century have experienced war on home turf in living memory, i'd say the US would not be prepared at all.







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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Wed May 10th at 12:30am 2006

? quoting Gwil
I'm certain.

*shrugs*

Well, OK then.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 12:37am 2006

I edited that post to back up my point.

I could also add that the supremacicist policies of the US Military would dictate they would never organise an "insurgency" (exactly as Ho-Chi, Hussein et al did) on the basis they believed they could win with their "expertise" alone.

In turn it all relates to analysis of empires of the world - to note the most powerful:

Rome - Civilizing Superpower
Britain - Enlightening Superpower
USA - Economic Superpower
China - Volume Superpower

i.e. the U.S. and it's strength comes from it benefitting from the problems befouling the 20th Century, and making a shedload of cash. It, in turn, got the roots of it's society from the British colonisation of the USA. Britain, got it's infrastructure and basis from Rome - now we see China turn towards democracy, and slowly, if corruptly, move towards overtaking the US on the sheer size of its working base.





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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Agent Smith on Wed May 10th at 12:43am 2006

In defence of the insane amount of military grade hardware owned by private citizens in the US, I offer my favorite home weapon shopping site as evidence of their ability to wage a defensive war, at least <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">.

Behold the Urban Armory: http://www.urban-armory.com


Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 12:49am 2006

Again, it's all "lolz been on the gun range" or reservist stuff. I can only cite Vietnam and Korea (bar WWII, I rule out WWI on age grounds) as times when the US has been directly involved in real war. It's not a direct dig at the US, moreso that the countries who could easily, over the United States or other Western powers defend their homelands have either been in states of perpetual "war" or are so lawless (ie ready access to weapons: eg; Yemen has 10 guns? (i think) to every one person) that it is extremely feasible they could defend themselves to a reasonable degree.

Bearing in mind as I said before, a large proportion of the population of the US would be too far gone to peaceful commercialism to take up arms (again it relates to experience of war - you have to be desperate enough) and i'm pretty sure a lot of the arms owned privately by American citizens will be small arms, probably handguns.

I'm basing a lot of this on assumption, but i'm fairly sure my points are fairly close to the mark. Of course, we can't account for how people react in situations of defending the homeland, but, I don't think the freedom of access to arms (albeit restricted) in the U.S. would be any advantage to them whatsoever.




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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Orpheus on Wed May 10th at 12:52am 2006

I am feeling the irresistible urge to be a "Cheeky Git" again... But, I'll pass this time.

It truly does no good to debate when the lines are so clearly drawn. Since there is no real way to prove either side, I will be the humble one this time.

/me bows out.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Agent Smith on Wed May 10th at 12:59am 2006

I suppose it wouldn't make a difference in Australia if we had guns, 75% of the country couldn't give a f**k about anything. Dirty bastards.


Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'



Quote
 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Agent Smith on Wed May 10th at 12:59am 2006

Sorry, double post.


Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'



Quote
 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 12:59am 2006

P.S.

That website is f**king nuts, Agent Smith.

Demonstrates to me that the NRA types are ones who masturbate over guns, the stamped out minority in Sri Lanka, Iraq, Sierra Leone are the ones who kill people with guns every day.


A gun is not just firing at a paper target - a gun is a tool to kill people. It is used everyday by hundreds of thousands, worldwide, just for this purpose





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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Naklajat on Wed May 10th at 2:49am 2006

I believe Americans (and all people) should have the undeniable right as a whole to own firearms, not in defense of outside invasions, but to protect civil liberty. The EU, while being unable to bear arms legally, is under a far more benevolent dictatorship than the US. The police and military are trained and conditioned to ignore people citing their constitutional rights (and arrest them in certain circumstances, when the authorities are violating said rights). This scares me. The media also portrays activist civil libertarians as A) hippy liberals B) uneducated country hicks or C) anarchists. This pisses me off. The world's government is far more corrupt than most people care to imagine. Most people are too busy frowning at what's across the fence to see the condition of their own back yard IMO (the whole damn neighborhood for that matter).

Plus, even if you don't buy into the whole corruption thing, or not that far at least, outlawing guns just means that only outlaws will have guns. Outlaws won't have too much trouble getting those guns either. Especially when our borders are as wide open as they are.

I could go on for a while about this kind of stuff, but I'd probably just be jumping from topic to topic ranting.


=o



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 Re: You need to watch this video
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 10th at 6:59am 2006

You realise of course many countries in the EU don't really have a constitution anyway? :P I think you make a point about corrupt government, but some of the EU points are a little misguided <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Hell, the problem with Europe is we have *too many* libertarians being listened to!





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