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 Re: Religion
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Jun 5th at 4:44am 2006

Science has not explained why Gravity operates, but we ARE sure it has NOTHING to do with anything unexplainable.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
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 Re: Religion
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Jun 5th at 7:45am 2006

Science never really explains anything, it just breaks up big unexplanable things into a bunch of interconnected little unexplainable things.

I like to give the example of lightening. Back in ancient times, people saw lightening and didnt know wtf was up. So over time "scientists" slowly started to explain it. It was pretty clear that lightening came with storms, so people say the storm causes the lightening.

But why does the storm cause the lightening? Thousands of years later people discovered electricity and realized that lightening is is electricity flowing through the air to make lightening, and that is a result of a storm.

But how does electricity work, thats still mysterious... Well in the 1800's Maxwell came up with his equations that describe electricity and magnetism.

Ok, but why are Maxwell's equations true? To explain this we have to get into particle physics and appeal to the standard model for particle physics.

But why is the standard model true? Thats still unexplainable. People theorize things like String theory, etc to explain the standard model, and one day these may be accepted, but the point is that nomatter how many scientific theories you come up with, there will always be an unexplainable element that you have to assume.

The ultimate "explanation" of anything in science is that it happens because we observe that it happens. That is just as true for explaining why particles interact via the standard model of particle physics as it is for explaining why lightening works.

So anyways, the scientific explanation of why gravity operates the way it does is, bluntly, because we observe it to act that way.


http://maze5.net



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Jun 5th at 7:48am 2006

I agree mazemaster. I think that science is great, but as much as some try to deny it, when you get to the top level of the tree of unexplainable things, you have to have faith of SOME kind.


I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: Religion
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Jun 5th at 8:11am 2006

As for _how_ gravity works (at least according to GR), heres a small non-mathematical explanation (hope I don't derail this conversation too much...)

Imagine that there is a colony of very smart ants living on the surface of a sphere. To them (locally) their world is totally flat, even though from our perspective (globally) we can say that they live on a curved surface.

Suppose that 2 ants that are next to each other but separated by a small distance roll small marbles in the exact same direction.

Ant 1: ----------->o
Ant 2: ----------->o

For a short time, the marbles will basically roll parallel to each other. However, since the marbles are on the surface of a sphere, even though initially they are rolled parallel, as they keep going they will travel along great circles, get closer, and eventually hit each other.

The ants on the sphere, observing that the marbles get closer to each other and eventually meet, hypothesize that there is a "force" that acts between marbles that pulls them together, and call this force "gravity".

However, in reality there was no force between the marbles. The marbles were just rolling along the shortest path in the geometry they were in, and on the sphere that meant that they got closer to each other as they rolled along.

Now if you imagine that the presence of marbles could also change the shape of the sphere, then thats basically General Relativity, except that the marbles are all matter, and the surface they are traveling on is space-time.


http://maze5.net



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Crono on Mon Jun 5th at 8:16am 2006

One of the four "great" forces ....

Just wait 'till we find that graviton particle.
All we need is another multi-trillion dollar particle accelerator.

Something that might make it more clear is that space is far from empty ... even if it is a vacuum. Anything massive enough will bend that space and cause a curvature ...

and I gotta say Maze ... just use the bowling ball on a trampoline example (with some smaller mass like a ping pong ball). Conceptual understanding is all that'd be needed in this conversation, I'd reckon.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Religion
Posted by mazemaster on Mon Jun 5th at 8:31am 2006

? quote:

and I gotta say Maze ... just use the bowling ball on a trampoline example (with some smaller mass like a ping pong ball). Conceptual understanding is all that'd be needed in this conversation, I'd reckon.


I'm not a big fan of the bowling ball/trampoline conceptual example. It confused the hell out of me until I actually took a class on GR because it seemed to require some sort of "meta-gravity" that causes the bowling ball to bend the trampoline, and it wasn't really clear how the trampoline surface could effect the path of a ball without actually applying a force to it (more clear with a sphere).


http://maze5.net



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Crono on Mon Jun 5th at 8:50am 2006

It's actually a very good example. I think the only reason why anyone would get confused is because they're thinking of a literal trampoline ... which is on Earth ... which has gravity.

Understanding that the surface of the trampoline represents a single plane of space and also that space is 3 dimensional (we're not counting time it takes to travel through it) you can understand that it means there's a plane everywhere, in every direction. (I suppose you could imagine a liquid fluid made of trampoline elasticity)

Also understanding that two forms of matter can't exist in the same place at the same time is imperative. Space is filled with "stuff". That "stuff" is what gets pushed around and creates the gravitational "force" (That, more or less, could be thought of a current through that trampoline fluid, if that helps). We're still trying to find the actual particles that 'should' exist (such as the graviton particle). No doubt, it most likely does. Since, as it has been stated, something "is" because it "is" doesn't make any sense and in our 'cause and effect' reality it defies almost everything we are limited to.

I have to be honest though: your explanation is bizarre and hard to understand ... and I already have an understanding of this aspect of general relativity.

I apologize about the continued derailment.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Religion
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Jun 5th at 11:50am 2006

? quote:
I agree mazemaster. I think that science is great, but as much as some try to deny it, when you get to the top level of the tree of unexplainable things, you have to have faith of SOME kind.


What I like about science is that it actually goes to the top level while most religions try to explain things on a very low, everyday level. (God made the lightings vs. electrons and friction). That's one of the main reason I never felt drawn towards religion.

______________________

I like your explaination a lot, mazemaster. I always felt the trampoline explaination jumping between 3 different dimensions is somewhat more confusing.



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 Re: Religion
Posted by gimpinthesink on Mon Jun 5th at 4:56pm 2006

I'm was cristend(sp?) CofE but I don't beleve any of it or go to chruch apart from if someone I know gets married or dies.


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 Re: Religion
Posted by DrGlass on Mon Jun 5th at 6:16pm 2006

I saw an intresting story on the title wave that hit in 2003. There was this one tribe of people who lived on the coast of the hardest hit area. Yet not one of them was killed. A reported (I think nation geographic) went out and asked how they survived.

The chief told them that the water god and land god fight for territory, and every so often they have a big battle where the water god steals most of the land. It only happens when the land pushes the water far back and reviles the land that was once under water. On that day the forest god shook the trees and told all the animals to run inland. Then the land god pushed the water back.

Those people KNEW what was going to happen, they just didn't use "scientific" terms to explain it. Its like a madlib of a science text book. I feel like that is a great way to go about religion, kinda like the Greeks. Explaining all the little facts of life they didn't understand with stories of gods. Its an honest way to inform the other wise dumb masses about all kinds of things.

Unlike some religions that don't want Africa to give condoms to it's people...




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 Re: Religion
Posted by Nickelplate on Tue Jun 6th at 12:04am 2006

? quoting Crono

Something that might make it more clear is that space is far from empty ... even if it is a vacuum.

Evidence against any sort of Nihilism IMO. Nobody can find nothing...

Dr. Glass. Every society ever in existence, that we know about, has some sort of beleif in Gods. You have to wonder why... As for condoms, don't care.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Stadric on Tue Jun 6th at 2:43am 2006

? quote:
Unlike some religions that don't want Africa to give condoms to it's people...


You are aware that AIDS isn't really that much of a problem in Africa, right?

Historically, malaria has always been a major problem in Africa. In order to diagnose a case of AIDS in Africa, the medical personnel and volunteers use score cards, consisting of a symptoms/points system, when you score enough points, you get an AIDS diagnosis. Malaria causes symptoms which tally up a 12 only with weight loss, asthenia(muscle weakness), and fever(there are more symptoms). All it takes is a 12 to be diagnosed with AIDS.

The other way AIDS is diagnosed in Africa is via HIV tests. HIV tests give false positives for: flu, herpes, immunizations, hepatis, blood transfusions, parasites, tuberculosis, and malaria, to name a few.

In fact, one of the more largely used peices of evidence at the beginning of the African AIDS scare was the alarming number of HIV positives in natal clinics in Africa. Pregnancy also causes a false positive.

Just so you know.



Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Tue Jun 6th at 3:07am 2006

? quoting Crono
Also understanding that two forms of matter can't exist in the same place at the same time is imperative.

What do you mean by "forms"? Any number of bosons can exist in the same quantum state. Fermions cannot. However, bosons and fermions cannot be described by a single wave function, so maybe that's what you meant.




Some people are like slinkys...

They aren?t really good for anything, but you can't help but laugh when one tumbles down the stairs.



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Crono on Tue Jun 6th at 3:26am 2006

I originally said "masses", I thought it was too specific, Masses in the example ... a force due to mass and acceleration (and many other factors) in real life. Anyway, I always get those two mixed up together. I forget which makes up force (Fermions?) and which makes up matter (Bosons?)

Anyway, my point is and was, if you imagine it as a trampoline and bowling ball, both are solid matter, that should give a conceptual understanding since we know we can't shove a ball and fabric into the same point ... realistically. If anything one of the masses would break, neither would exist in the exact same place. I also wasn't talking on a quantum level. If you're going to talk about gravity, it makes more sense to talk on grand scales (maybe as small as planets).

Nothing of what I said is technical nor is it to be used in calculation or higher understanding. It's simply an idea to express the concept to people who have no clue WHY gravity exists. Nothing more.

I don't understand the need to complicate it more by delving deeper just to give a frame of reference to the concept!

I barely know anything about it, so asking me technical stuff ... about as technical as I can get on a particle level is the amount of quarks in basic particles ... I even forget all their states, but I do remember there being 6.


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Tue Jun 6th at 3:55am 2006

Sorry Crono, I'm just being a pissant. I haven't read the thread and have no idea what you guys are talking about.

For the sake of trivial information: Fermions are non-integer spin particles, and are the constituents of matter. Bosons are integer spin particles, and are generally force transmitters. However, you'll note that many nuclei are bosons because they have an even number of half-integer spin nucleons. Thus, as a pissant point, you CAN have huge quantities of matter existing in the same quantum state, and thus the same space-time coordinate. They are called Bose-Einstein condensates. I don't think that sort of thing exists on the stellar scale though.





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 Re: Religion
Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Tue Jun 6th at 4:09am 2006

I'm not religious and I highly doubt there is a God.




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 Re: Religion
Posted by Crono on Tue Jun 6th at 4:10am 2006

It's okay.

I suppose I should have pointed out earlier that I'm talking about large scale, nothing nearly as small as atomic or sub-atomic ... which is what you're talking about comes into play.

SEE! I knew I had them backwards!


Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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 Re: Religion
Posted by G.Ballblue on Tue Jun 6th at 4:42am 2006

? quoting DrGlass
any one know why gravity works?


I thought it was something creating a gravitational pull. Something equaling everything in the universe, including that dime in your pocket.

(please note that I have only read about 65% or so of this thread)

Roman Catholic, practicing. (Church every Sunday/Saturday, but I am not a religious physco :P ) I fear that I am continuously becoming more and more of an agnostic, but I guess all religions have "tests of faith".




Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it



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 Re: Religion
Posted by Dr Brasso on Tue Jun 6th at 4:54am 2006

christ, my head hurts....lol

tough read, but thanx....i have pillow talk for the old girl tonight....

seriously, tthee or so well mannered, well informed gents having a discussion .....breath o' fresh air....

mazey, excellent example also, i understood it clearer at first, but on further contemplation, they both make good examples....my physics knowledge is pretty much limited to engineering and relatives; i hate to say it, but i feel like i missed something...lol gravity is asumed, and calculations are made from that assumption....the liquid with mass traveling thru it helped alot crono, and tb, well.....i always thought a boson was a deck ape, and a furion wa a warrior from a vin diesel movie....

.....you guys needed a smartass in there didnt ya?

Doc B...

.....and yes, a little faith is required, imh but not needed opinion....





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 Re: Religion
Posted by DrGlass on Tue Jun 6th at 5:09am 2006

? quoting stadric
Just so you know.


hey hey! I didn't say anything about how AIDs was or wasn't bad/that bad in africa, I'm just saying that religion can create contradictions where you can't do the right thing and the right thing. But the info does enlighten

As for all this science jabber, its over my head... though I'm so very intrested in it all. Read "A brief history of time" a while back, really sparked an intrest. I found this a little while back falling into a black hole GIF simulation of a ride into a black hole. It would be a cool way to die.






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