You know that I mostly believe in altruistic thoughts but in this case, I'm going to have to disagree.

I'll be the first to admit that having fun is the number 1 priority where level editing is concerned, but the effort vs. end result factor for a killbox is just so lopsided that its unrealistic to consider that just because a million people have fun playing a killbox, that somehow that makes it noble or even worth considering as a legitimate endevour.

I bash killboxes. Not at every turn, but yes, I feel they deserve just as much respect, as the effort it took to make them justifies.

Its always been my opinion that its not the people bashing them who are doing harm, but the people playing them. After all, if there were no market, there'd be no product.

In the end though, we all must decide if the effort we expend in bashing them truly needs to exceed the effort it took to make the maps. IMO, it only helps them. People will eventually unite to defend the little or insignificant things.

Tis why I haven't commented on a killbox in quite some time.

Tis worth considering methinks.

Man, I love killbox discussions. I've said this many times in the past, but I don't mind repeating myself on this issue. My opinion can be summed up quite easily.

- from the perspective of craftmanship and through the eyes of artist/architect - Killbox maps are utterly apauling, grotesque beasts.

- Any mapper who doesn't try to understand WHY they are so popular is missing a prime opportunity to understand their player base. There is a very valid lesson to be learned from killboxes. It is this: accessibility is ESSENTIAL to creating a map that 'sticks' with the community.

Ive seen dozens of great maps spill through this community and website over the past 6 or so years that I have been involved in HL1 and HL2 mapping. The majority of these maps have been lost in the void - why? Because the majority of this player base isn't so much looking for the type of quality that we, as mappers are looking for - they are looking for 'FUN'. To Joe-blow player who isn't a member of the Halflife Elite Players CLub, fun does not mean getting lost in a mazelike map while better players pummel them with toilets. These players flock to killboxes, where the minimalist environment gives them much narrower focus to deal with (that being guns, aiming, and basic movement).

So, the bottom line is, the difference between a good mapper and a great mapper doesn't come down to just pixel pushing or architectural flair - it involves knowing every aspect of your craft, inlcuding the user base. This is gameplay 101 - what do your players want, what do they consider fun, how can you TEACH them, while still giving them an accessible map?

Killbox fad = An opportunity for mappers to create simpler environments that are easy to learn, focus more on the fun factor, and offer something for both new and experienced players. There's no reason that these maps cannot look great. There's also no reason to exclude more experienced player, by offering a layer of strategy through movement. New players will see experienced players hopping around the map in ways that they didn't consider, and will most probably try to pick up these moves. In a mazelike map, new players won't as easily see all of the tricks that good players use to get around the map fast.

Anyway, turning your nose to the killbox phenomena only makes you a snob. Embrace the things that are popular yet cheap, and try to inject them with quality, rather than exclude them.

If there truly is a lesson to be learned from killboxes, I hope to eternally be ignorant of it.

/discussion for my part.

? quoting Jinx

I see these maps that are basically crappy little boxes with guns, ammo and stuff to shoot at. Is this the new justification for releasing utter crap, kinda like "killbox" became its own genre along with "conc" maps for TFC?

I'm not sure what I'm seeing counts as an actual complete map. It's more like lazy n00bs wanting to push their garbage on the world and inventing this new "genre" as an excuse to not learn to make a complete map.

You want to practice aiming? Play the damn game. Shoot at MOVING targets. At best we'd need one or two "aim" maps, not a whole genre of this garbage.


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(and when is someone going to fix the site so I can add an emoticon in Firefox without all the text disappearing?!)

this is why i stopped playing/mapping cs. Too many s**tty maps that get play time and the good ones (like mine) don't.

I think some valid points were made all around, but this quote is the crux of it all.

No one wants to play a decently made map because it takes a certain level of dedication and/or skill.

You know though, even though the killbox is the most played deathmatch map, it isn't the most popular played style map. IMO, the total counter-strike, TFC and DOD maps have got to out number them and all of them require a certain amount of brain cells.

Perhaps the main reason for the popularity of the killbox is that the tools required to do so are so readily available. If the editor were made less accessible, there'd likely be less of them.

We can at least be thankful that the ideal of proper mapping is kept alive through other mediums.

I've often asked myself, are the other first person shooter games plagued by these maps? Or is it that their editing has a harder learning curve and this weeds them out?

Could HL benefit from an editor that stupid people cannot learn?

We can hope.

God, I hate stupid people.

(I am quoting Otzman, but I am not picking on him. There is no ill will intended. I am simply commenting on the ideal of his words since they are shared by a lot of people.)

You know, I really have a problem with this type thinking. Considering that "Fun" is so ambiguous and purely opinion based. The very fact that fun is always associated with simple maps truly retracts from the premise to the point where ONLY simple maps come to mind whenever people think of having fun.

I think my maps are crap. Tis true IMO, but I had fun building them, and every time I play them I have a blast doing it. It begs to ask, why if my maps suck, do I have fun?

But seriously people, don't wad all fun maps into a package and stamp "Simplicity" on the wrapper.

I, and many like me, enjoy the spirit of the chase.

I wish more than anything that fun would encompass any map. Not be synonymous with brain dead people.