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Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 2:05pm 2007

They never give a reason why from what I've seen. I've tried making brushes by themselves and then joining them all together. This process is alot more time consuming than making a simple box and hollowing it. I always found myself changing the grid size back to 64 again and again when I wanted to make a new part. What's more, is that I did not encounter a single advantage by doing things this way.




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Andrei on Wed Jan 10th at 2:26pm 2007

? quote:
Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?"


Nah, they're lying. Everyone has to use the hollow tool eventually.

Many simply avoid using it when making stuff like buildings because the result is, after all, a simple hollow cube whereas a building is a lot more than just 6 walls and some windows. image



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by OtZman on Wed Jan 10th at 2:28pm 2007

I think one of the reasons could be that when hollowing more complex geometry errors often occur, such as when hollowing a cylinder using a thinner one to create a pipe of some kind.




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 2:34pm 2007

No sorry I meant for the very bare bones part of mapping. Like when you start and use nodraw. Like for example what ever you start with say a rectangle or a cube (there really isn't much choice) then they would use the hollow tool




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by OtZman on Wed Jan 10th at 2:38pm 2007

I guess some feel they have greater control when doing it manually, and that it doesn't take that much longer.




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 2:41pm 2007

? quoting Andrei


Nah, they're lying. Everyone has to use the hollow tool eventually.

No they don't. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">

There ain't nothing made by a hollow tool, that can't be built better by hand.

Have I used it? You bet.
Did I regret using it? You bet.
Do I use it any longer? NEVER!





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by FatStrings on Wed Jan 10th at 2:59pm 2007

that orph he's such a rebel
if for nothing else it comes in handy with the skybox



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Captain P on Wed Jan 10th at 3:02pm 2007

I use it sometimes, when skyboxing a testlevel. The problem with hollowing is that it's generally only really safe when doing so on cubes. And the problem with that is that you easily end up with very square-looking and feeling maps.

Doing stuff by hand gives more control, and isn't even that much more time-consuming, especially considering the (hopefully) better results. It helps to know a few tricks here, like cloning brushes by holding the Shift key when moving them, and flipping brushes with Ctrl+I and Ctrl+J.


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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 3:14pm 2007

? quoting Captain P

It helps to know a few tricks here, like cloning brushes by holding the Shift key when moving them, and flipping brushes with Ctrl+I and Ctrl+J.

You mean, CTRL M, right?





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by asterix_vader on Wed Jan 10th at 3:23pm 2007

i think he meant Ctrl+I and Ctrl+L, sometimes Ctrl+M rotate function converts your nice and valid solid into a invalid, impossible to compile, error maker solid, at least in VHE.

hey by the way, are you talking about hammer 1 or 2 or both?





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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 3:33pm 2007

? quoting asterix_vader
i think he meant Ctrl+I and Ctrl+L, sometimes Ctrl+M rotate function converts your nice and valid solid into a invalid, impossible to compile, error maker solid, at least in VHE.

Actually I meant CTRL M

Cappy was talking about rotating a 6 sided solid, not a 25. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/heee.gif">

No, seriously, I meant CTRL M.. It will rotate that thing every which-a-way you want.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 4:24pm 2007

Well I'm sorry but I simply fail to see the advantage of manual cube building. I'm not at the level you guys are at, but I simply can't see any other way to go about mapping other than making box rooms and then populating them Look at my last map if you will, this is just four glorified box rooms. I've even checked out the Valve example maps countless times and still can't come up with anything other than the simple box room


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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Natus on Wed Jan 10th at 4:37pm 2007

Well, you should read some of these, maybe you can get some ideas about how to make pretty boxes, and other stuff than just boxes.

You should try playing around with 45deg angles too.


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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 5:12pm 2007

? quoting Flynn
Well I'm sorry but I simply fail to see the advantage of manual cube building.

Its not really a question of building cubes. Its a question of building habits. In this case, good habits.

You see, once you justify a bad habit, in this case, a very small bad habit, you will gradually advance to more destructive ones. Eventually you end up saying, "I'll just carve this here and make a few thousand tiny pieces. So what if the r_speeds go up to 2000. My PC can deal.

We are not telling you how, but why its advisable. You are in charge of your own map. Do as you wish.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 5:27pm 2007

Yes but cubes are very easy on optimsation.


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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Gwil on Wed Jan 10th at 5:29pm 2007

It seriously is in your best interests to develop as a mapper building wall by wall and ceiling by ceiling. The most notable example here on the Snarkpit of why it's important, and how it helps to break out of "box room" style mapping, is here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=10




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 5:30pm 2007

? quoting Natus
Well, you should read some of these, maybe you can get some ideas about how to make pretty boxes, and other stuff than just boxes.

You should try playing around with 45deg angles too.

Oh btw, I peeped that and it was all multiplayer O.M.G. Gwil that's for Half-Life 1! I can't possibly read that j/k




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by BlisTer on Wed Jan 10th at 5:35pm 2007

Every once in a while you need a few brushes that are at 90? from each other and you haven't got similar ones in the correct plane yet. Using the key combinations will give you that fast, but if you can't directly tell "that one needs -90? around the X axis" yet, then it's ok to hollow out a brush and adjust it to your needs. the only thing you need to remember about it is that you ungroup the hollow out brush before making adjustments to the seperate brushes. Well you can also shift drag the original and make fast adjustments in the correct views.. just remember to ungroup if you choose the former. and we trust you will not advance to evil habits <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">




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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Captain P on Wed Jan 10th at 5:37pm 2007

No Orph, I meant Ctrl+L, not M. I hardly ever use that tool, as I've set brush rotating with steps of 15 degrees so 90 degree rotations are easy.

Anyway, if you can't get your head around it, no problem. Some things take some time. Just try some different shaped rooms now and then, a few 45 degree corners here, some ceiling height difference there, L-shaped rooms, circular ones, and so on. Of course, some rooms are just cubes and trying out all sorts of shapes doesn't fit everywhere. And of course, there's outside worlds. HL2 should be a good source of inspiration in this regard. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


Create-ivity - a game development blog



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 Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by reaper47 on Wed Jan 10th at 5:38pm 2007

I use it for skyboxes, yes.

Maybe if you aren't experienced with shift-cloning (ect.), hollowing brushes for rooms can help at first. But as soon as you get used to shift-dragging brushes and a few other shortcuts it becomes simply faster to build walls manually.

It's not because of the walls themselves but because what you do with them later. When building doorways or corridors, for example, or adding additional corners to a building. Then it can become tedious because you can't teach the hollow tool to use different widths for sides of the same room, or build them in a way you can add additional details like trims.

You have to fix all the hollow-tool's mistakes and it ultimately takes longer than building a floor, shift-copying the floor to a ceiling, building a wall and copying the wall 4 times.

It's about speed.


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