Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by fishy on Wed Jan 10th at 5:42pm 2007


The thng about the hollow tool is the way the sides never seem to know whether to sit on top of the base, or whether to extend down the outside of it. Sorting problems that cropped up from that was enough to put me off using it. No doubt, you'll come up against the same problems and do the same. When you do, you'll find that it isn't a hard move to make. For now though, do what suits you, and enjoy mapping.


i eat paint



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by FatStrings on Wed Jan 10th at 5:53pm 2007


well said fishman



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 8:12pm 2007


? quoting Gwil
It seriously is in your best interests to develop as a mapper building wall by wall and ceiling by ceiling. The most notable example here on the Snarkpit of why it's important, and how it helps to break out of "box room" style mapping, is here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=10

It was all going great guns until this bit:

"Now the middle section of your corridor is done, its time to work on the entrance sections. Hide everything on the map except for one of the end sections and the middle of the corridor you have just made. For this example we will make the end bits serve the purpose of neatening up the brushwork of the corridor for easy transition into the rooms at the ends. That does not mean to say that they need to be rectangular in shape.

Use your clip tool to split the end section?s wall into 3 bits, and the ceiling into 3 also. Now change your grid size to 4, and using the vertex tool create the shape shown below. Note that the floor is not changing, so you can use that as reference to ensure everything is lined up correctly. Once you have one wall made, you can clone it and flip it rather than going through the process of making the second wall."

I guess not having any dimesions to work with just threw me
I'll keep hacking away at it though. Maybe after reading the same bit a dozen times I'll realise something I didn't last time. EDIT: Hey I can't seem to make the brushes line up without altering the shape of them




Just Kidding

Just Kidding



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Naklajat on Wed Jan 10th at 8:29pm 2007


? quote:
Doing stuff by hand gives more control

QFT.

? quote:
do what suits you, and enjoy mapping.

Also QFT.

? quote:
Like when you start and use nodraw

Using nodraw on the backfaces of your map provides no benefits, since (unless you have a leak or a giant box around your entire level) only the inside faces make it into the .BSP, everything else gets thrown out in the first few seconds of compiling. Do yourself a favor and make your level less radioactive to look at in Hammer.



=o



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 8:34pm 2007


You forgot this one Candyman.

? quote:
Its a question of building habits. In this case, good habits.
<img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 8:53pm 2007


? quoting Baron von Snickers
Using nodraw on the backfaces of your map provides no benefits, since (unless you have a leak or a giant box around your entire level) only the inside faces make it into the .BSP, everything else gets thrown out in the first few seconds of compiling. Do yourself a favor and make your level less radioactive to look at in Hammer.

O.M.G. yes! That's a good way to discribe the way nodraw l00ks.




Just Kidding

Just Kidding



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Dark_Kilauea on Wed Jan 10th at 9:54pm 2007


I use hollow alot when I have cubic rooms, and modify them later. I picked up a habit of mitering my corners from my Quake 3 mapping days, so may times I end up going over all the corners in a room and mitering them anyway.


Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Crono on Wed Jan 10th at 10:18pm 2007


Using any of the tools in hammer is personal preference. The only thing that you can ever be criticized on are is poor construction once you have compiled the thing.

Arguing one method is better than an automated tool because you're personally inept when using the tool is a ridiculous argument. If the tool actually caused tremendous heaps of problems when it is used, then it'd be valid, but the hollow tool doesn't do that.

The root cause would still be sloppy mapping, which isn't inherit to any of the tools, since none of them do everything for you. It's all in how the tools are used.



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Bewbies on Wed Jan 10th at 10:23pm 2007


i make a cube, and carve out the middle with a sphere.

works ever time.

edit: cept that one time.. when i was also dividing by 0. that was quite a day.




the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 10:26pm 2007


O.M.G. I love you for that reply I want to kiss you every time!


Just Kidding

Just Kidding



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by parakeet on Wed Jan 10th at 10:57pm 2007


Hollowing is a tool, and should be used probably minimally. When you hand build a map, you'll find that you are less tempted to leave it as a cube. It's not that hollowing is horrible, it's just inefficient the way that it doesn't know whether you want do bring the walls to the floor or not. It's just like cutting a cube, and deleting the center :/ (tis all the hollow tool does).

Hollow has it's uses, but i have to say I've grown against it over time :/.



.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 11:05pm 2007


This is the biggest problem I've come across using the hollow tool to make cubes.

Most cubes aren't exact. What you end up with is a cube with two sides thinner, or thicker than the rest and eventually, you make a leak, or worse, you end up with some error and need the assistance of the rest of us to resolve.

If you make a cube, that doesn't really mean it will stay a cube. Most people will stretch one side or more BEFORE they have separated the pieces!!!

Anyway, as Adam said. Its laziness or sloppiness where you are just to inept at using the tool.

Logically, its best to discourage its use, because its easier to scare someone FROM using it, than to TEACH them to use it correctly.

Thats my take on the hollow tool.





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Flynn on Wed Jan 10th at 11:13pm 2007


? quoting Gwil
It seriously is in your best interests to develop as a mapper building wall by wall and ceiling by ceiling. The most notable example here on the Snarkpit of why it's important, and how it helps to break out of "box room" style mapping, is here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=10

O.M.G. man this tutorial is the greatest!!! TOTALLY AWESOME DUDE!!! I done it I actually done it!!! JUST DON'T MENTION INTERSECTING BRUSHES HERE AND THERE! O.M.G., O.M.G., O.M.G. I want to give everyone a big hug I can only begin to fathom the possibilities!!! I have finally come of age! (At least I think I have, I dunno how to tell for certain) Basically, I was worrying about stuff that was going to be covered later in the tutorial so there was no need to line up everything at a certain stage if you know what I mean...he used a method that I always forget about I'ma probably follow that tutorial again twice just to get everything exact.




Just Kidding

Just Kidding



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Jan 10th at 11:56pm 2007


? quoting Flynn
O.M.G. man this tutorial is the greatest!!! TOTALLY AWESOME DUDE!!! .

Oh look. Duncan has another one hooked.

You can send the money to his Swiss account. The details are in his profile under "SO YOU LIKED IT HUH?" <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_lol.gif">





The best things in life, aren't things.



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Gwil on Thu Jan 11th at 12:23am 2007


Glad you enjoyed it Flynn - makes me wish I wrote it :P Here's another one, that's on the same subject (kinda)

http://www.snarkpit.net/editing.php?page=tutorials&game=HL&id=93






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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by ReNo on Thu Jan 11th at 2:06pm 2007


Awww, comments like that make writing tutorials so worth it <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> Glad you enjoyed it Flynn!





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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Naklajat on Fri Jan 12th at 7:40am 2007


That bunch of tutorials helped me a lot too, when someone posted the links in my first evar map thread. In general the HL1 tutorials section has a lot of stuff relevent to mapping on really any engine with additive BSP. Some stuff, like the triangle terrain tutorials, may not be all that useful for Source, but I think it's damn groovy tbh.


=o



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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Natus on Fri Jan 12th at 7:47am 2007


? quoting Baron von Snickers
That bunch of tutorials helped me a lot too, when someone posted the links in my first evar map thread. In general the HL1 tutorials section has a lot of stuff relevent to mapping on really any engine with additive BSP. Some stuff, like the triangle terrain tutorials, may not be all that useful for Source, but I think it's damn groovy tbh.

Heh, i remember when i've just gotten hammer and found the cliff/terrain tutorials, it was all i did for mapping, just cliffs and bumpy terrain.

Then i added land mines <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">





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Re: Why do some mappers say they don't use the "hollow" tool?
Posted by Stadric on Sat Jan 13th at 6:23am 2007


? quote:

I have finally come of age!

Yeah, that'll happen a couple more times. I don't want to ruin it for you, but jut wait until you realize just how useful (and surprisingly easy) displacements are.

I only use the hollow tool when I'm
(a) creating a test map, or
(b)creating a tutorial map.
Otherwise its just a little less easy to make four walls, a floor, and a ceiling, especially since I'd only have to make two brushes, and edit two more. Besides, when I make it myself, I know where things are for sure, there's no doubt in my mind.
Control is the essence of...control.



Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying




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