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The blame game.
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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Feb 26th at 3:15am 2007

? quoting Nickelplate
What video game did you get THAT idea from, you sick kid?!

Donkey kong..

Oh now,wait. We were gonna discuss your jewels later.

Sorry, my bad.





The best things in life, aren't things.



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Feb 26th at 3:25am 2007

lol.

Anyway. I wish they'd leave my games alone... Taking mature content out of "Mature" rated games is like taking the alcohol out of alcoholic beverages... In either case, you're removing the mature content from things that kids are not supposed to have, anyway.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Orpheus on Mon Feb 26th at 3:32am 2007

I found this, just for you bud.



The best things in life, aren't things.



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Foxpup on Mon Feb 26th at 9:59am 2007

It should probably be pointed out that the FBI report on the Columbine High School massacre (which the media blamed on DooM for no other reason than that Eric Harris was a damn good mapper) makes absolutely no references to DooM or even violent video games in general. The whole idea that violent video games make children violent is just a great media confabulation.


Better to be in denial than to be human.

Bill Gates understands binary: his company is number one, and his customers are all zeros.



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by azelito on Mon Feb 26th at 10:52am 2007

Woaah, I had no idea the subject was taken to these levels in Germany. This is absolutely outrageous and anyone supporting this kind of censorship should get executed on spot. I can honestly not believe this is happening at all.
Has nobody in Germany made the points mentioned above, as this kind of censorships should also include alcohol, tobacco, porn, driving, along with everything else prohibited for people under 18? It's an argument that can not be ignored.
Absolutely f**king ridiculous and I'm raged to the f**king f**k, f**kasses.


"Azelito, stop being a f**king bitch. All I see you do is complain and insult people in your recent posts. We don't care, go find a razor you emo pansy..." -Windows98



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Juim on Mon Feb 26th at 1:21pm 2007

Do you think the guys who robbed my house played too much thief?

We need a patch now (in Germany of course) where he sneaks around and leaves gifts for everyone. And if he gets caught they shake hands and laugh at lifes good fortunes.





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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Feb 26th at 2:04pm 2007

I see no news about this in any other source including Steam news, which by some kind of law, has to tell us what exactly they are putting on our computers, right?

Some kind of prank?

[edit] okay, no. I found this

http://www.planetcrap.com/topics/354/

so others are starting to complain.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by ReNo on Mon Feb 26th at 2:14pm 2007

They aren't putting it on our computers though Nickel, they're putting it on German computers. I guess Austria gets caught up in that, sadly. A quick google turned up a little mention of it, as well as a fix...

http://nambulous.wordpress.com/2007/01/03/half-life-source-uncut-even-in-germany/



Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Feb 26th at 2:43pm 2007

How do they determine who is in germany? coz my computer is set to "german" in a lot of settings...


I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Feb 26th at 3:01pm 2007

Then you're doomed, Nickel <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

No, I think they're checking IPs now. A pretty bad check, but I doubt they'll confuse the US with Germany <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

As for the IP-checking: Hurray for Steam.


Why snark works.



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Bewbies on Mon Feb 26th at 3:45pm 2007

This is just too dumb for words. Ok, maybe a few.. but that's all im giving it. The German government and its witchhunt refuse to look beyond "Killergames", and ignore the parents, general upbringing, and murderous nature of the individuals. I mean, maybe if some kid was a saint his entire life, then went and killed his classmate after a session of GTA3, there would be at least a single instance of what the German government believes the problem to be. And even then, many more spawns of satan are caused by bad parenting than violent video games.

*sigh*

Violent video games did not create our violent society. Our violent society created violent video games.




the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Nickelplate on Mon Feb 26th at 4:30pm 2007

So true, Bewbies!

It's not like game companies decided one day that they would make Violent video games and sell them to people who abhor violence. They catered to what the consumer wanted. And now, they're doing the opposite, IMHO.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Feb 26th at 6:33pm 2007

I don't know what to think about this anymore. Of course all gamers agree but the people in the media love the distorted controversy and willingly use the politicians' arguments. They air reports that cut 1 second clips of Counter-Strike with Columbine videos and dramatic music playing in the background. "Killerspiele" almost translates to "Murder-Toys" in German, something for kids to learn how to murder. Which shows how most people still think these games are aimed at at kids or teenagers who masturbate while knifing virtual civilians.

For most people I know I feel like kicking at an open door, but there are serious political movements to ban FPS games.

What I find very ironic is that in past years I never, not even once, heard about violent movies. That Erfurt guy who posted videos of him re-enacting scenes from The Matrix in youtube videos... No-one mentioned movies even once. It's not fashionable. Of course, Counter-Strike is to blame. Maybe they'll find a new target in the future but right now it's computer-games. (As a side-note, I read an article about another teenager massacre in Germany (btw, why do they happen so often in the country with the strictest media-cencorship of violence in the world?) that mentioned "Final Fantasy" as their major "inspiration".)

But yea, again, I feel like kicking at an open door posting this here. There are so many arguments against this nonsense but sometimes I feel like there are too many. I still don't know where the core of all this stupidity lies. Maybe there is none, it's going circles. They're using people's inability to remember things that were explained 10 minutes ago and bring the same three unsubstantial arguments over and over again in discussions.

It's kinda frustrating. <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/sad.gif">


Why snark works.



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by $loth on Mon Feb 26th at 10:14pm 2007

No doubt that violent games/films/music can influence a child, hell, they influence adults don't they? That's why you see grown men rapping and walking around in what I can only describe as a diaper for a 30 year old.

But, it is the parents responsibility to make sure their kid does not have access to this stuff, just like they do with alcohol, ciggerettes, drugs etc. Take some bloody responsibility!




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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Feb 26th at 10:57pm 2007

True. Actually, I would try to restrict their access to huge amounts of weaponry first. Where do they get all those UZIs?


Why snark works.



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Naklajat on Tue Feb 27th at 4:26am 2007

? quote:
But, it is the parents responsibility to make sure their kid does not have access to this stuff, just like they do with alcohol, ciggerettes, drugs etc.

Speaking from experience, if kids want access to alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, etc, they general get it. It's not the parents' job to keep those things away from their children, that's just plain impossible (without living underground or in a closet or something). Their job is to help their child form moral values and a sense of right and wrong, and to talk to their kids about how that stuff will end up hurting them much more than it's worth in the end.

TV, the 21st century babysitter, gives a very skewed view of the world and reinforces materialistic values with the five minutes of 'buy this!' every ten minutes. American public school, from my personal view, serves to make many kids feel disenfranchised and faceless in the system, while the frustrated, overworked teachers who deal with hundreds of students a day give them a poor education focused on passing standardized tests so the school can get more funding, rather than preparing the kids for the rest of their lives. (*cough* NO STUDENT LEFT BEHIND ACT *cough*)

Games (at least good games) teach kids how to solve problems dynamically, to view errors not as failures, but as chances to learn. Kids know the difference between games and reality, anyone who tells you otherwise is full of s**t, and is probably old and either doesn't have kids or doesn't spend time with them, or has a political agenda. Granted, the majority of games don't have broader moral messages or try to teach people something, but the rest aren't "teaching kids to be violent."

Games are the big scapegoat these days for the ails of society, just as rock and roll was when it was in it's infancy, and before that it was music like jazz, blues and swing "negro music." It's blaming a single entity/ideal because the problems that are actually to blame are a lot harder to fix.


=o



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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Tracer Bullet on Tue Feb 27th at 5:11am 2007

Look guys, I've always agreed wholehartedly with the community on this one, but recently I've come to think that there may be some validity to the theory that games/movies can in fact enable killing. For anyone really interested in learning about the topic instead of bashing away with the same tired old arguments, I recommend the book On Killing, by David Grossman. It isn't about video games, but it does have a chapter on the subject. I won't say it's the best written book I've ever come across, but it contains some very interesting ideas from authoritative sources.

The gist of it is this:

The vast majority of people appear to have a very strong subconscious inhibition against killing other humans. This has nothing to do with your rational faculties. Even those who completely lack this inhibition are not necessarily psychotic killers. You are who you are, and your rational brain keeps you from hurting other people. This book deals with what happens when you are past reason. The point is that even when you find it logical to kill another, be it as a soldier in war, or simply because your insane like these teenage murderers, most people can't do it.

Soldiers in all wars up until Vietnam exhibited a behavior known as "non-firing" 85% of all soldiers on the battlefield never fired a shot at the enemy. They deliberately fired over their heads or not at all. This is born out in historical casualty rates and actual studies done during and after WWII. Even while being ordered to kill, with their own lives in grave danger, and all the official morel and legal sanction one could wish for, the vast majority of men could not bring themselves to kill another.

in Vietnam, things changed. The firing rate was brought up to ~95% though new army training programs stimulated by the non-firing problem discovered during WWII. All modern armies now use similar training programs... which just happen to be VERY similar to FPS games. Practicing the act makes it possible. I do want to emphasize however that being conditioned in this way doesn't make you a killer. However, it just might make it possible for you to pull the trigger if the time ever does come when you think you need to.

Imagine a deranged child who steals his parents gun, points it at someone, and then finds himself unable to take the final step. Then compare this to one who has practiced the "final step" so often on screen that it is quite simply automatic. Is there a difference? The derangement was not caused by the violent media, neither was the decision to kill in any way different than it would have been in their absence. What changes is that final psychological hurdle. What changes is the difference between life and death.

Would you know if that last safety catch in your mind was being worn down? I doubt it. For most of us, it would probably never make any difference because we would never decide to kill in the first place. But does it enable the otherwise deranged? I can't say for sure, and I don't buy everything in this book or everything I just said, but I think it is possible and worth thinking about.





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 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Nickelplate on Tue Feb 27th at 5:34am 2007

Good insight, as always Tracer!

Let me preface all this by saying that I played violent games since wolfenstein and Rise of the Triad. I think can honestly tell you that I had violent thoughts about my schoolmates during that time in my life that I was made fun of. Sure there were one or two that I wanted to kill just to make them stop, because they would not stop any other way. Sure i thought it'd be cool to totally make them piss their pants in front of a gym full of people while holding a gun to their head, whether i pulled the trigger in these fantasies, I don't know. I never would have thought of killing if killing had not been done before, I never would have imagined the instrument of death as a gun if guns had not been invented before I had these thoughts. I never would have thought to put it to his head unless I'd seen it somewhere before.

Does that mean that the invention of killing, and firearms is responsible for these thoughts and how easy i thought it'd be? I don't think so. I played half-life for a long time and also during this time in my life. I never thought of bludgeoning with a crowbar or how cool it'd be to release snarks upon my nemeses.

I guess what I am saying is that our WHOLE life experience is responsible for who we are, not JUST games, not JUST TV, not JUST genetics or bad parenting. I think that an increase in violent content in Games, TV, Movies, and Music among the other media has led to a higher average of violence in each individual.

Before, I wanted to stick up for games because I love to play them and design for them. I hate restrictions on currently unrestricted areas such as STEAM and censorship of original works like art, movies and games. I hate security lockdowns and patriot acts. They take it too far.

But less violence in our media (which almost wholly controls small kids, I've seen from my nephew) would be a far greater thing than more of it.




I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Agent Smith on Tue Feb 27th at 5:51am 2007

I've also read On Killing, I found it in the library back when I was at uni, and I also thought that Grossman had some valid points in the area you've pointed out Tracer.

The effect of training, and of constant exposure to simulated killing, is not to turn people into savage murdering psychopaths, but rather wear down that inbuilt barrier that stops a normal person from being able to kill another person. It's crucial for a soldier to enable them to fight to their full capacity. And even though they find it easier to kill when necessary, like a normal person they still feel remorse for the act.

The book also has some interesting insights into psychopaths, which is really what applies to those people who go on shooting spree's. They have no barrier in place to begin with, and feel no remorse for killing. Often the most successful career soldiers are psychopaths, simply because they have no problem with killing other human beings.

It's also interesting to read the sections on squad based combat, and how a soldier in this situation overcomes the natural impulse not to kill. While the soldier may not even want to kill to save their own life, they will gladly kill, even sacrificing their own lives, in order to save the lives of their comrades.

Anyway, I highly recommend this book. A number of very interesting insights about killing in combat and military training. Though I think Grossman's stand on video games is strange considering his own research.


Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'



Quote
 Re: The blame game.
Posted by Naklajat on Tue Feb 27th at 7:38am 2007

The military training that is similar to shooter games is not the same beast at all. The participants train with those tools with the sole intent of becoming a better soldier, and they do it alongside actually firing the same weapon. Playing a game is generally to be entertained, not to train to become better at killing people. The mindset is fundementally different, and the player takes something completely different away psychologically. Also, most gamers will never fire a gun in their lives, much less the same rocket launcher, .50 Cal machinegun, high-powered sniper rifle, etc, the same day as playing the game. If your kid is playing a game in which he/she shoots innocent people, and then goes to the gun range and does some target practice with their AR-15 directly afterwards, that should raise a red flag for any parent.

Clicking a mouse or pressing a button on a controller is very different from aiming a gun at a person and pulling the trigger, and again, even small children know the difference between games and reality. Do kids really think they are superman when they wear their blanket as a cape? Do they truly believe they are a doctor or a spaceman or a cowboy? No. They can make the distinction between play and reality, and it's the same for video games. Do you think you're actually shooting alien zombies in Half-Life?

Another huge factor in this equation that is usually left out is that per capita occurrences of violent crime have been in a steady decline in the US since the mid 1990's, about the same time the first FPS games were introduced (not that those two things are related at all). The occurrence of violent crime for all age groups has been steadily declining as video games (the great evil of the modern world) are hitting their stride. Seems to me that there is no overt correlation between violent video games and violent behavior.

Violent crime rates at US Department of Justice site

? quote:
I think can honestly tell you that I had violent thoughts about my schoolmates during that time in my life that I was made fun of.
I don't think that's abnormal at all, violent thoughts are a natural part of anger for healthy people. The fact of the matter is, you had the thoughts and did not act on them, despite Satan making his best effort through Wolfenstein 3D to make you act on them. Kids who shoot up their schools don't do so because they play CounterStrike, that's just retarded.


=o




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