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Creation of the universe
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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Gwil on Sat Dec 15th at 8:46pm 2007

? quote:
? quoting irony
I don't know how the Universe was created, nor do I care. I think the time and energies of mankind can be put to better use solving the problems of mankind in reality.

A full, final and undeniable explaination of creation would help to solve most of mankinds problems.

--

BBCode snarfed up!

But then that's subscribing to the ideal that "religion causes wars!" which always has been, and always will be a redundant argument - religion can be used to justify SOME wars, but it certainly isn't the sole cause of mankinds suffering. Even if the question were answered beyond reasonable doubt, people would still use the moral teachings of religion to give life a purpose.

Keep in mind that the 2 bloodiest conflicts of the the 20th century (one causing the other, and therefore causing a 3rd) have hardly anything to do with religion, if anything at all.

Never mind the fact that the bloody mindedness of industrialisation and global capitalism doesn't find its roots in religion, in fact most of the modern problems of the world are created by the so called "enlightened" thought of European philosophers.

Uttering that all the worlds problems are down to religion is wrong on so many levels, most importantly because it views the world from Western ideals and through the eyes of the Abrahamic religions. I'll grant you that a large portion of problems to do with religion affect Europe and the Middle East but again, that's laying the blame at the door of religion without any regard for the many other factors which contribute to social problems.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by BlisTer on Sun Dec 16th at 12:34am 2007

I just saw a tedtalk on this.

There are 2 things: a fundamental law of physics, and a lot of accidents (quantum mechanics). Together they can explain where we are today, without divine intervention.

  • The conformability of nature to herself
  • the applicability of the criterion of simplicity
  • the "unreasonable effectiveness" of mathematics describing physical reality

are emergent properties of the fundamental law of physics. "You don't need something more to get something more. Life, the human mind can emerge from physics and chemistry + a lot of accidents."


These words are my diaries screaming out loud



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by RedWood on Sun Dec 16th at 1:04am 2007

? quote:
Life, the human mind can emerge from physics and chemistry + a lot of accidents."
Sounds like common sense to me.


Reality has become a commodity.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cassius on Sun Dec 16th at 2:03am 2007

Aaron: Understand that there is a distinction between fabricated mythologies that account for the various characteristics of the universe and data observed in or deduced from those characteristics. The former represents part of the realm of imagination, into which your narrative fits; the latter is the province of science. Yours is a work of science fiction. Do not confuse it for genuine knowledge.

What's funniest about creationists is that their arguments never hinge on evidence, only rhetorical caveats that typically don't follow the discussion at all. Their counter to any mention of the fossil record or microevolution is typically: "Don't you know Jesus loves you? Why would you reject the love of Christ?"



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cassius on Sun Dec 16th at 3:09am 2007

I agree with Gwil, though, that most critiques of Christianity are overstated. It's inappropriate to label something negative that's done and continues to do a host of good things for the world. I'm an atheist, but feel that religion is necessary to society (though reprehensible in government). Community hinges on ritual, and any ritual hinges on the spiritual significance its adherents feel it has. Religion provides that significance in a way that no fabricated ceremony can: compare our culture's reaction to Christmas to its reaction to any of the various UN holidays.

Christian doctrine shouldn't be confused with the choices of Christian leaders or the practices of Christian cultures. Any criticism of it should respond to its dogma.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by French Toast on Sun Dec 16th at 3:18am 2007

Yeah, but which UN holiday encourages capitalism as much and gets people free s**t? I mean, christmas is a poor example because its religious roots are so far gone and you're a fool if you deny it.

I personally think the world would function much better sans religion.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Gwil on Sun Dec 16th at 3:20am 2007

Heh, I like the comparison drawn to the UN holidays - it reminds me of an "EU anthem" I saw on our news/satire program yesterday.

In the United Kingdom currently, I can't help but see social problems that - despite being an avowed atheist - would be easily solved by a good batch of moral berating. Like Cass says, some form of religion or better still, /adherence/ is necessary to maintain an impetus in society. Religion is only one of those factors - more often than not in industrialised societies or newly developing countries it is the pursuit of wealth or goods, whatever the detriment to the people at large. Surely religion can provide this AND give a small (if somewhat flawed) teaching of ethics at the same time?



? quote:

The love of money is the root of all evil


I used to believe this, but now I believe the root of all evil is the pursuit of money to maintain social acceptance and adaptation... but that's a different argument altogether!



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cassius on Sun Dec 16th at 5:24am 2007

? quote:
I mean, christmas is a poor example because its religious roots are so far gone and you're a fool if you deny it.
We've thoroughly imbued Christmas with features particular to our culture, it's true -- virtually none of the popular symbols we associate with the holiday have any real link with scripture or even to the church.

While I acknowledge that it Christmas shopping has become a cornerstone of consumer culture, I think that it's another matter entirely to say that the exchange of money and goods has come to replace all the spiritual significance of the holiday.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Gaara on Sun Dec 16th at 5:36am 2007

tl;dr
http://www.exitmundi.nl



Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by OtZman on Sun Dec 16th at 10:01am 2007



? quote:

The love of money is the root of all evil


It's also the reason why our society is as well developed as it is. It's the reason why we have flatscreen TVs, a s**tload of clothes, as advanced technology as we do. Constantly trying to earn more, without breaking any laws, means satisfying the needs of other people with products or services and receive money from them for this. If someone pays $10k for a TV, they obviously value the product at least that much. Money is one of the major incentives that make it worth the effort trying to please others. I for one would certainly not work my ass of in school, if it weren't for the potential future monetary reward. Sure, having an education/good job and being generally hard working usually brings social status and well being, but being able to earn money is a very significant portion of why most people try as hard as they do. This whole "Capitalism is 3vil booohooo!" thing is just stupid. It seems most people don't understand it's thanks to capitalism we can enjoy many of the luxuries of today.

One argument against capitalism/consumerism is how it effects the climate. Sure, I agree that if everyone continues to consume and produce at an increasing pace, it does burden the environment. But, with the right govenmental interventions, I think this will turn around as a society reaches even higher levels of wealth. People will start to value the environtment as a good and people will be willing to spare money for a cleaner environment. If you haven't got enough to feed your family you probably won't give a damn, but the more developed a society is, the more it will care for relative luxuries such as a clean environment.




What the Snarkpitters listen to!



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cassius on Sun Dec 16th at 12:23pm 2007

The root of "evil," a word which I feel is spouted inappropriately in almost every instance of its use, is self-interest, which I feel is the root, to use your term, of nearly every action. An ancient Greek monist, introduced to our modern world, would probably declare that the basic substance of all matter is money. You are reading this sentence because money brought you education, the internet, computers and the Snarkpit -- not to mention electricity and shelter, among a host of other advantages. Money determines what you can and cannot do with your life, how people will treat you, how you will think of yourself. Your positions on the proper use of money will determine much of your politics. Like it or not -- and I think we should at least accept it -- money is, today, as essential to human life as water.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by fishy on Sun Dec 16th at 2:05pm 2007

I've only ever known one person who stockpiled water, but he done that because he was sure the Russians were about to invade, and he said poisoning the water supply was the first thing they'd do.


i eat paint



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by reaper47 on Sun Dec 16th at 2:33pm 2007

In history classes I was fed the notion that religion is never the problem. Like it's a poor, harmless and misunderstood treasure chest of moral wisdom, only abused by the mighty and powerful. History teachers seem to like that statement because it's so diplomatic and they won't have to discuss it with their students (or their student's parents).

Religion may be a logical consequence of all civilization, needed as an explaination for what cannot be fathomed rationally. It keeps your head clear from difficult and inexplainable questions. But today, almost everything religion was needed for hundreds or thousands of years ago has been replaced by better, scientific arguments, including modern ethics, far superior to the outdated and abstruse teachings in literature written 2000 years ago.

I do think that religion was necessary or at least inevitable at some point. But it's obsolete now. At least in its current form.

The problem is that, unlike science, which can evolve and change with new knowledge, religion is always dogmatic. You can't say: "Hey, what god told his disciples here is stupid, outrageous and wrong by today's standards, we should strike that!" No, it will always stay in there and children will be told it's wise and justly. They must not question God (or they will suffer eternal misery and pain in hell). They're under the moral dictatorship of an imaginary man. I can't help but find this to be a very troubling thought.

Hardly a historical tragedy has been the result of a single event or political motivation. It might be true that extremism in the Middle East is the result of oil-capitalism not religion, but, for example, this situation of women or the fatwa-based justice system isn't. Neither is the election of Bush because of his "Christian values". I don't see why religion should always be treated as a "secondary" cause, just because discussing it as something bad is considered tactless by... religion itself?


Why snark works.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cassius on Sun Dec 16th at 2:55pm 2007

? quote:
But it's obsolete now.
How would you respond, though, to my suggestion that religion, however dated or invalid, is useful? In my view, it encourages decent behavior among people who are incapable of real meditation on ethics, just as its traditions provide spiritual inspiration for people who are incapable of real meditation on metaphysics. To paraphrase Redwood, religion is a placeholder for rational, demonstrable theories on the natures of humanity and the universe; but isn't that placeholder desirable for the wide majority of the public, knowing they could never digest more substantial ideas? (Forget Hume, Whitehead and Russell -- the better part of our species can't understand the value of contraceptives.) In short, wouldn't you rather your local lowlife find Jesus than mug passers-by?



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by reaper47 on Sun Dec 16th at 5:08pm 2007

I think there are better alternatives. The way religion enforces itself is either through the promise of a dream world (heaven) or psychological terror (fear of hell, fear of non-existence after death). It might be what some people need as a motivation to follow any kind of moral guideline. But thinking it is a requirement for any serious motivation for decent behavior is quite a sad outlook to me.

Also a criminal can be a very religious person.

I'd rather see them finding true prospect in life than in a hypothetical after-life.


Why snark works.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by fishy on Sun Dec 16th at 6:36pm 2007

there's some good reading on the subject here. the best thing about it is that the guy seems to be 100% serious. funny as hell. (which may or may not be funny, according to your beliefs)


i eat paint



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Naklajat on Sun Dec 16th at 7:16pm 2007

Fishy that's the awesomest website I've seen in a long time.

? quote:
The sun is a cube, not a sphere. It only appears to be a sphere because it is spinning at a high velocity. All suns (i.e., stars) are cubes. Darkness intentionally designed the universe like this because on a metaphysical level, cubes (or more specifically, their 90-degree right angles) create strife, confrontation, and confusion.

? quote:
The Earth is hollow, with an inner sun
and a more advanced civilization than ours.
In fact, all planets are hollow and have inner
suns. Some of the Inner Earth people are
aware of Earth's outer surface, and others
are not.

? quote:
One cannot travel to the North Pole or to the South Pole for two reasons:

1.) The North Pole and the South Pole do not exist. In their place are polar openings that lead into Inner Earth.

2.) Anyone en route to a polar opening is eventually stopped by Outer Earth guardsmen.



=o



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by RedWood on Sun Dec 16th at 8:42pm 2007

? quote:
...Neither is the election of Bush because of his "Christian values". I don't see why religion should always be treated as a "secondary" cause, just because discussing it as something bad is considered tactless by... religion itself?
Not sure what u said hear, but politicians use religion as a tool to manipulate the masses, noting more. And believe me,in the US, it's scary how many people blindly follow their political leaders purely base on their religious beliefs.

People who need the fear of hell or the encouragement of heaven to do the moral things are lousy people. People should be teaching their children morals on how it effects others not only them selves.


Reality has become a commodity.



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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Sun Dec 16th at 9:17pm 2007

? quoting reaper47
The problem is that, unlike science, which can evolve and change with new knowledge, religion is always dogmatic. You can't say: "Hey, what god told his disciples here is stupid, outrageous and wrong by today's standards, we should strike that!" No, it will always stay in there and children will be told it's wise and justly. They must not question God (or they will suffer eternal misery and pain in hell). They're under the moral dictatorship of an imaginary man. I can't help but find this to be a very troubling thought.

This is not true at all. The Bible is reinterpreted and religious teachings adapt all the time in the face of modern society. This has been seen all throughout history. For example, you're not gonna find any Catholic that thinks the sun revolves around the Earth, despite the fact that Galileo was excommunicated for proving those very things hundreds of years ago. Do you really think every Christian religion treats the story of creation in the Bible as literal fact?

Granted, some modern day issues, such as gay marriage and abortion, are probably not going to be reinterpreted and accepted by mainstream religion, and some religions are less modernized than others *cough* Islam, Baptists *cough*, but to say that religious teachings never change is silly.





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 Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Le Chief on Sun Dec 16th at 10:51pm 2007

? quoting http://truthism.com/
Human beings were created (that is, invented)
via genetic experiments that were conducted by
reptilian aliens. These reptilian aliens, also known
as the "Anunnaki" or the "Reptilians," still rule the
Earth to this day.


He is not serious, right? He even has a picture of the "reptilian aliens".


Aaron's Stuff




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