Creation of the universe
Post Reply
Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by reaper47 on Sun Dec 16th at 11:37pm 2007


That truthism page is awesome.

Also, I have to agree with Yak Fighter there, I got a little excited about this topic and should have relativised. But the thing with the sun revolving around the Earth... it took quite some time to... "convince" the church that it might be wrong. The pope, as far as I know, doesn't even denounce evolution these days.

I think religious stubbornness is more a hindrance than a true stopper for development. Just think of where heavily Islamic countries could be if it weren't for their extreme religiosity. Imagine a Dubai where you can't get a three months' sentence for "harassment of the airport floor" for doing push-ups (although Dubai is maybe one of the most modern and tolerant places in the Middle East).






Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by French Toast on Sun Dec 16th at 11:54pm 2007


? quote:
? quoting reaper47
The problem is that, unlike science, which can evolve and change with new knowledge, religion is always dogmatic. You can't say: "Hey, what god told his disciples here is stupid, outrageous and wrong by today's standards, we should strike that!" No, it will always stay in there and children will be told it's wise and justly. They must not question God (or they will suffer eternal misery and pain in hell). They're under the moral dictatorship of an imaginary man. I can't help but find this to be a very troubling thought.

This is not true at all. The Bible is reinterpreted and religious teachings adapt all the time in the face of modern society. This has been seen all throughout history. For example, you're not gonna find any Catholic that thinks the sun revolves around the Earth, despite the fact that Galileo was excommunicated for proving those very things hundreds of years ago. Do you really think every Christian religion treats the story of creation in the Bible as literal fact?
Granted, some modern day issues, such as gay marriage and abortion, are probably not going to be reinterpreted and accepted by mainstream religion, and some religions are less modernized than others *cough* Islam, Baptists *cough*, but to say that religious teachings never change is silly.


Yeah, but by saying that religion contradicts itself, because if the bible is the infallible word of God, then surely the meaning doesn't change?




Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Le Chief on Mon Dec 17th at 12:30am 2007


? quoting RedWood
Some of the earlier gods (Greeks/Romans) were created and used as scape goats. "OO why did our crops dye." "We didn't pry to the god of rain enough". It gave them a wanted answer and the appearance of some kind of control. By praying or making a sacrifice, whether it be a pot or a eight year old girl, it gave a false sense of control witch is nice to have.
A lot of the more modern western religions are used as a form of government. They seek to control every aspect of their followers lives. And they will kill you if you argue with them.


Personally, I believe that the only reason why religion exists today is fear. People believe in a certain religion for there own personal salvation (not going to "hell"). Anyway, if god, this apparently nice and loving person did exist, would he send a good person to hell just because they didn't believe in religion? Does a person who believes in religion receive any benefits for believing? If we are so imperfect, than we can surely be excused for not believing in any form of god.






Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Mon Dec 17th at 12:58am 2007


? quoting French Toast
Yeah, but by saying that religion contradicts itself, because if the bible is the infallible word of God, then surely the meaning doesn't change?

What if God made a microwave burrito sooo large that even He couldn't eat it? He wouldn't be all powerful then... woah I just blew some minds!

Words on paper can and do have debatable meaning. Without God himself coming down and yelling in your ear exactly the way things should happen it'll be left up to interpretation.





Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by French Toast on Mon Dec 17th at 1:49am 2007


Oh yadda yadda yadda, you're missing my point. If the divine word of God is the bible, how come two people both devoutly of the same religion can read it and come out with completely different interpretations? people extrapolate what they want to from it, these are the major holes in religion which are blatantly obvious for all to see.



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cassius on Mon Dec 17th at 10:04am 2007


? quote:
Anyway, if god, this apparently nice and loving person did exist, would he send a good person to hell just because they didn't believe in religion?
Just to state it in this thread as I'm sure this point will come up often, the Bible actually does have a counter for the idea that a good God would never allow the world to be bad. The Book of Job basically advances that God is nonmoral, or that he doesn't behave according to our systems of morality, or our sense of who deserves what. Essentially, the rules he gives us are not the same rules he keeps for himself. He defends his rules, of course, by saying that we could never understand them.




Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by bengreenwood on Mon Dec 17th at 1:44pm 2007


With the whole 'everything had to have something that came before it' thing, isn't time just a matter of perspective? I mean, time is just a way for living things to make sense of the world. Maybe it's not more of a solid, real thing than your perception of colours.

Of course if that's true then maybe things in the future can influence things in the past, or they're interlinked or something. Maybe there are kind of weird patterns that effect the order everything occurs in, like maybe there's a bias toward intelligence/ life developing in one place or something.

Personally I find it hard to believe that intelligent civilisation just randomly evolved here but nowhere else in the universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox). It's a bit like when you think of all the trillions of possible ways things could have gone that would have led to you not being born, whereas there was only one, ridiculously unlikely chain of events that would lead to your birth. And the latter happened, just by chance.

It'd be like waking up one morning to find the winning lottery tickets from ten different countries that had just happened to fall from the buyers' pockets outside your house, because those lottery ticket buyers were all taking random day breaks in your town/ country. And then Richard Dawkins would just reply to that "well, it had to happen eventually, to someone.".





Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Flynn on Mon Dec 17th at 2:46pm 2007


The universe is evlolving at a trillion billion zillion light years per nanosecond



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Dec 17th at 7:08pm 2007


If something happened, the probability that it didn't happen is zero.





Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Natus on Mon Dec 17th at 7:22pm 2007


? quote:
If something happened, the probability that it didn't happen is zero.

?(?_o)/?




Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Crono on Mon Dec 17th at 8:48pm 2007


? quote:
Maybe it's not more of a solid, real thing than your perception of colours.


Colors are far from a perception. Time is a measurement, just like distance. If you really think about it a meter is rather arbitrary and it's a quantification to allow us to understand it. Time is the same thing. What people confuse about it, unlike a distance, is it is not a physical thing.

Because we labeled it and gave it a measurement, people think of it differently.

But colors are not a perception, perhaps the detail of them is, though (as if people had a fourth color band they would see differences in colors, as far as I know, there's only two women on the planet that have them.)



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cash Car Star on Mon Dec 17th at 9:19pm 2007


All sorts of light is sent and reflected. Evolution has slowly filtered out the noise to concentrate on a small band of wavelengths that seem to be frequent, but distinct from material to material. After our eyes adapted to the world to be most advantageous, we then began adapting the world to be most advantageous to our eyes (for example: which materials we use for artificial illumination). But colors aren't real. There's no such thing as 'red'. There is such thing is light waves with a wavelength of 710 nm. We've merely categorized the noise. But without eyes, the difference between red and purple is completely unimportant.



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Le Chief on Mon Dec 17th at 10:53pm 2007


The scientific rule "energy can't be created or destroyed" is false. And I am going to prove it maybe in a few hours to you guys. But first, I want to know if anyone else thinks this rule is false, or if anybody stands by it and says I am wrong. Speak now.





Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by RedWood on Mon Dec 17th at 11:06pm 2007


? quote:
The scientific rule "energy can't be created or destroyed" is false. And I am going to prove it maybe in a few hours to you guys. But first, I want to know if anyone else thinks this rule is false, or if anybody stands by it and says I am wrong. Speak now.
I don't know whether or not that is true, but what answer you get depends on who u talk to. Some believe mater is crushed out of existence by black holes. (but it still existence in other parallel universes(confusing))



Reality has become a commodity.



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Le Chief on Mon Dec 17th at 11:14pm 2007


Its like a huge law in science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

? quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy
Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed


This law is false, and I can prove it. Who else thinks I am wrong or is with me?






Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Crono on Tue Dec 18th at 12:28am 2007


? quote:
All sorts of light is sent and reflected. Evolution has slowly filtered out the noise to concentrate on a small band of wavelengths that seem to be frequent, but distinct from material to material. After our eyes adapted to the world to be most advantageous, we then began adapting the world to be most advantageous to our eyes (for example: which materials we use for artificial illumination). But colors aren't real. There's no such thing as 'red'. There is such thing is light waves with a wavelength of 710 nm. We've merely categorized the noise. But without eyes, the difference between red and purple is completely unimportant.


So, you're saying that if we label something the label which represents that something is meaningless? <img src=" SRC="images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif"> No, it represents what you've labeled. That's like saying nothing has weight, because that's just a word to describe the force of an object.

These are abstract things we commonly label so we can use them.

If everything is caused by something else, then nothing means anything except for the abstract idea, something, as a species, we cannot communicate natively. And, what light is reflected from an object (indicating the color) has a lot more to do with the material of the object and it's speed more than anything else ... a color indicated all these pieces of data and is a reaction. While the labeling of "red" is arbitrary, it is just a label, it doesn't mean what it is labeling is not a real thing. Just because there are more things in the spectrum, doesn't mean the ones you can readily detect aren't real.

Aaron, you cannot prove it. No one can.



Blame it on Microsoft, God does.



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Le Chief on Tue Dec 18th at 12:53am 2007


The problem with the law energy can't be created or destroyed is that it contradicts some facts about our universe that we already know. If energy cant be created, it cant be created. Its impossible for energy to be created or be created by anything under any circumstances, there for energy shouldn't exist, but it does. So than, how did it get here? What happened if we trace an "energy" all the way back, how far would we go. If the energy law is correct, than we would go back infinite, or the energy was never created in the first place, but than how does the energy exist.

Just ask yourself, forget all the rules you know, is it possible, maybe under rare conditions, for energy to be created out of nothing or for energy to be "amplified".






Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by French Toast on Tue Dec 18th at 3:40am 2007


Aaron, I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself...



Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by bengreenwood on Tue Dec 18th at 4:19am 2007


Cash Car, there is such a thing as red- the conscious experience of it, at least. And that conscious experience is a real, solid, existing thing, that is different to just the description of it. Maybe if you were describing how a computer deals with red, yeah maybe, but from what people describe of their experience of consciousness, it seems pretty apparent that humans don't process information in the same, non-consciousness experiencing way as computers. Nobody has a clue how the brain works, really. I mean, not at the core level i.e. being able to make one from scratch.





Quote
Re: Creation of the universe
Posted by Cash Car Star on Tue Dec 18th at 4:53am 2007


Some things are because they are. Like a volcano or a platypus or a hula hoop or a midget. Some things are because we name them. Like red or love or enmity or truth.

Oh, and I know how to make a brain from scratch. "And for this trick, may I present my lovely assistant..."





Post Reply