So many times on this forum, people have danced around this subject. Orpheus was often quite cavalier about his 'taboo' versions of this and that. More recently there was a brush with the subject on another thread in which I posted. My question is this.
Without incriminating yourself, and if possible, remaining as honest as you can, please explain why at any time you've felt that pirated or cracked versions of software/music/movies of any kind are justified.
Is it simply a money issue?
Are there deeper motivations?
At what point do you consider a program or file of any kind not worth paying for?
Software which has been distributed freely by it's creator does not qualify for this thread.
I'd really be interested to know how you feel about this subject.
Posted by Juim on Sun Mar 23rd at 1:58pm 2008
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Posted by hl_world on Sun Mar 23rd at 4:08pm 2008
Although a lot of software available today is way overpriced for its quality, piracy can never be the answer. By contributing to the reduction of profits for the manufacturers, you will only damage the quality of future products. Besides, if a company produces comercially available information-based products that are of the genuine quality it is priced at, don't they deserve to make a bigger profit?
I believe that when you buy something like a video game that can be copied easily, you should own the rights to download make and keep back-up copies and modify until you sell originally bought product to someone else.
As for those console games of the 80s & 90s that no longer sell as cartriges and are available as roms, I think they should be released as legal, downloadable freeware. I mean, whos going to wait, like, 10 years to play a game they are interested in rather than wait a few months for it's retail price to inevitably plummet?
Posted by FatStrings on Sun Mar 23rd at 5:22pm 2008
I download movies, mostly old ones, because I am a poor college student, and I get some software, usually design related
any of my happy time software [games] i get myself, but when I'm going to a school where i spend $500-1000 on supplies for projects a year I feel a little put out regarding the spending of $600 on Photoshop
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Posted by reaper47 on Sun Mar 23rd at 5:24pm 2008
I do not think that any developer ever had to shut down due to piracy. You could say that the potential sales, if piracy didn't exist at all could have been higher. You can't say how much higher, though. And you can't abandon piracy through preaching or ridiculous copy protection (which will always be cracked). Basically, I think that whining about piracy is either useless or dangerous (see first paragraph). It's like living in a big city and complaining about rush hour.
I think that ignoring piracy, and focusing on making a good product, is the only way to go. It maximizes user sympathy and if the product is worth it, enough people will pay for it. "Sins of a solar Empire" is a good example, without any copy protection they topped PC sales and made millions. This article is an interesting read on the subject.
Posted by haymaker on Sun Mar 23rd at 5:46pm 2008
The other perhaps more minor side to this is the piracy of music production software. I will admit guilt on this, for 3 or 4 years I used Nuendo to compose and record BUT I would never have considered using it on a pro release. Not because it's not good enough ( it totally rocks ) but I know a few guys running small studios for the love of it, and using licensed, paid-for copies. That is where I draw the moral line, when it hurts the little guys. I butted heads with others in the band about bringing our machines into one of the bigger studios too; could you imagine what the owner would think as he saw "RADIUM" on the splash screen? Uh-uh.
Bottom line is, my piracy experience actaully led me to learn an advanced tool and I now know a lot of shortcuts when it comes time to use it in a legit environment.
BTW check out the site, especially the hardware forums, these guys really know their stuff.
Posted by Captain Terror on Mon Mar 24th at 12:30am 2008
95% of the music i download, if it wasn't available for download, i would never buy in the record store, so what have the record companies lost from me?
same with movies. i downlod them, ya, but if they were not available online, would i go out and pay 10-15 bucks for them? In most all cases hell no.
On the other side, if i felt i needed to, i would justify my piracy by the record/movie companies overcharging us for YEARS...apt payback imo. It cost me $22 to go to a movie with a big popcorn/drink... that is f**king insane.
CDs are still way overpriced, and not enough of the sale of the record goes to the artist, so shame on them twice.
finally tho, i think if you like something a lot, you should pay, whether it be media or software. if you download sumthin for the heck of it because your bored and you only listen/watch it once, you shouldn't pay a nickel.
Posted by RedWood on Mon Mar 24th at 1:20am 2008
Bioshock. Did they really think i would let them install a root kit on my pc?
Halo 2 pc. I would have gladly bought it, but the store bought version didn't run on xp. And as far as i am concerned, Microsoft owes me money for the over priced os's they've sold me. Seeing how they obliterate any potential competition with illegal business practices.
I download music. Not much. I think my entire collection is only about 20 cd's large. I feel a little guilty, but i would have never bought any of those cd's anyway. I plan on paying for the next disturbed album that comes out.
I would fell much worse if the producers didn't take such a large cut. It's only like the band is losing a dollar anyway. As for the other 8-9 dollars the producers are losing... they can burn in hell for all i care.
I downloaded a iso burning program with a proprietary file format so i could install Bioshock. I think most likely that program was created for cracking and burning games anyway. So f**k them.
When i rented Casino Royal the dvd wouldn't play. It required me to install there media player to watch it. LOL, right, i don't know if that software was a rot kit or not but even if it wasn't i still wouldn't install it. I went and download the trial version of Any Dvd. Worked like a charm. I plan on buying the full Sly Soft package sometime in the future.
I downloaded No Contry for Old Men. Wish i still had my netflix account. I don't feel guilty, though i don't think it was right that i downloaded it. If they had it in the local theaters I would have went and saw it.
Ummm... i think thats it.
Posted by wil5on on Mon Mar 24th at 3:09am 2008
However, this doesnt mean software developers must go out of business. The problem is that most consider their software, in and of itself, to be the product. Compare with a system like Steam, the most effective anti-piracy system I've seen (that is, the only effective one). Instead of paying Valve for a pretty box with a cd full of numbers in it, you are paying them for the *service* they provide - the game is added to your account, it is kept up to date, you can play it on any computer you like, you can play against others, and the system tracks your in-game acheivments if you're into that sort of thing. There are of course plenty of flaws in the Steam system, but in all, I'd say it does more good than harm. I know there are cracked versions of most of the games on Steam, but who actually uses those? CS:Source has changed a lot since 2004, and I'd rather not be stuck with that version and no online servers.
Steam easily beats having to crack your own legitimate games because of draconian anti-piracy measures.
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Posted by Yak_Fighter on Mon Mar 24th at 4:18am 2008
The
only time I really ever 'pirated' anything outside of the realm of music is abandonware games and old console emulated games. I don't consider abandonware pirating in the slightest, but I know some do. As for roms, I'm not going to rebuy the NES games I own, and I'm not going to go rummaging through garage sales and tempt fate with ebay hacks to get the ones I don't. Don't really care if Nintendo wants to resell their entire NES and SNES library through the Wii either, because I'm not about to support them wringing even more money out of people's pockets for overpriced ancient stuff. If, for example, Nintendo made a cd of all its NES games for 20-30 bucks that worked with a computer I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy it. Instead it's $5 for a game released in 1988. Only 90% price reduction after 20 years?! Thanks!! I'll gladly pay a multiple hundred percent markup for something worth penniesMusic is a little different situation. I did alot of downloading in college mainly because of getting burned so hard on terrible cds where I've only heard the radio singles and nothing else. This is merely justification for stealing (which it is), but I did greatly expand my musical tastes through the easy introduction to new songs and this led to a great deal of purchases, ballooning my cd collection from 15ish to 100ish, so I think the music industry won in the end. Nonetheless my musical tastes aren't that diverse, which led to scouring for rare songs by my favorite bands, unreleased stuff, out of print stuff, etc, and this is where I still think downloading music is justified. Out of print cds that have become thousand dollar plus collector's items, such as the first Queens of the Stone Age album or Mindless Self Indulgence's first album (yes they're dumb I know) I wouldn't hesitate to download, if I could find them. Unreleased stuff that will probably never see the light of day like Powerman5000's Anyone for Doomsday album that got cancelled and then leaked are guilt-free as well. I'd gladly drop $15 on said albums, but they're never gonna be found in retail so, much like abandonware, they are free game (pun intended).
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Posted by RedWood on Mon Mar 24th at 5:05am 2008
O and i forgot.
I have downloaded a TON of porn. Lots and lots of porn. Literally, i delete most of it after skimming through it and finding it doesn't suit my tastes (
Posted by Riven on Mon Mar 24th at 7:58am 2008
I want to point out that there is a new wave of commerce getting started; one that is separate from capitalism, socialism, communism, and totally dependant on today?s modern technology by mainly but not limited by the internet. Wouldn't it make sense to start thinking about how the next form of commerce and economy will emerge? It is through what is called the "collective action" theory (-Google it). Today's technology has increased our evolution of commerce. When the alphabet was invented, new forms of records were then able to be kept of the trades that occurred each and everyday for a tribe or civilization. Then we had the printing press which was able to help such visionaries as Newton, Luther and Jefferson realize and spread their vision. Beyond that we had broadcasting stations that then allowed us to spread a message for miles apart for other people to hear, and so now, with computers and internet, every computer is now a printing press, every computer is now a broadcasting station; and it is from these forms of communication that we keep advancing our technology basing the next form off the last. This is why we are able to advance even more rapidly than before. Eventually, we will be able to carry/wear technologies that will communicate at faster speeds greater than through what we consider broadband today.
Where am I going with this? Let's investigate further:
Why do people steal software and other forms of digital goods for no good reason? They try to form rational self-interest. In many tests over the world, people play what is called the "Prisoner's Dilemma" (-Google it). Basically, imagine two people sitting in separate rooms. One is offered $100 but is told to split his $100 with the other person for however much they want to (fair or not). The first person chooses and the remaining decided amount is offered to the second person, who then has the choice to accept it or reject it. What the two people are not told is that if the second person rejects the amount (if he thinks it is unfair), neither of them are paid, and the game is over. What has been discovered all over the world is that somehow, there is an innate understanding of the game's result. That is, the first person realizes within themselves that they should make a fair offer for the sake of it. And unbelievably, the end result of the game has been that most people settle on the amount. What does this prove? That rational self-interest is not always the dominating factor in market deals. Yes, there will always be stealing for whatever reason, but there should probably always be a majority that refuses to.
So, where am I now? I'm now going to explain how what we consider "altruistic punishment" is what keeps stealing in check. It has been suggested that "altruistic punishment" may be the glue that holds societies together. It is the joy people in business and on the market get when they punish people doing bad things (such as stealing or cheating in general). This ranges everywhere from suing someone, to posting a negative comment on their site for treating you unfairly. People will act to punish cheaters even at a cost to themselves.
Now, here's my "tie-in" statement: referring to my first paragraph, new forms of cooperation through communication in the past have helped create new forms of wealth. This is true today through the internet. Look at open source production and peer-to-peer production. If in the past new forms of cooperation create new forms of production and wealth, then it may not be so farfetched to imagine that we may be moving into yet another economic form that may be considerably different from the others.
There is a certain kind of sharing that is evident in modern corporation's self interest. Outsourcing has proven that world class software such as Linux and Mozilla can be produced without the Socratic structure of the firm. Google enriches itself by enriching thousands of bloggers through "AddSense." Amazon has opened its API to 60,000 developers enabling countless Amazon shops. But this is not out of altruism, but simply as a way of enriching themselves. E-bay solved the Prisoner's dilemma! They created a market where none would have existed by creating a feedback system that changes what the buyer and seller think of one another. It has become a situation where the buyer proves to the seller that he is trustworthy enough to buy from. Wikipedia has used thousands of volunteers to create a free encyclopedia with a million and a half articles in 200 languages in just a couple of years. BitTorrent turns every downloader into an uploader making the system more efficient the more it is used. Millions of users have dedicated their computers when they're not using them to link together through the internet to create super computers that crack algorithmic codes, search for life in space and find cures of diseases. Companies are outsourcing because it enriches themselves; people are banning together out of self-interest. It is an economy with both equally involved: self interest AND all-inclusive enrichment. All over the world people are banning together through cell-phones and IM to warn one another about a problem in the city, or to remind each other to go vote, or rally at an event.
Now, I'm not saying that understanding cooperation is going to cause us to be better people, in fact, sometimes, people cooperate to do bad things, I'm just saying that having a better understanding will allow us to progress even faster into the next generation of commerce which is probably a good thing. People are now setting their own prices for how much they think an item is worth. And that trend is trickling down to the everyday seller. Not just retail and auctions. Stealing is just a way people try to get what they want because they either don't like the system in place to legally get what they want, or they believe the amount of this item is not fair for whatever reason.
With that being said, I cannot take credit for this entire post, as most of my words have been either paraphrased or quoted directly from this man: Howard Rheingold I had watched his TED conference talk not long ago and this post by wil5son reminded me of it, so I decided to pass on his words in the context of this topic. I think it has some relevance
.
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Posted by wil5on on Mon Mar 24th at 11:30am 2008
Okay... an example. Lets say I make bottled water. I put a lot of time and effort, and my own money, into making these wonderful glass bottles, filling them with water and taking them out to sell them. Is it my fault, then, that if I'm standing next to a water cooler selling my hard-to-open glass bottles of water for $10 each, that people don't buy my product? Should they buy it just because I put so much work into it, when they can just get the same thing for free?
Riven, you make a good point. Open source is the way things are going to go, but unfortunately it will take a while.
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Posted by fishy on Mon Mar 24th at 2:34pm 2008
Posted by RedWood on Mon Mar 24th at 3:06pm 2008
Can you produce a game at the same quality that Valve or some other developer produces them? Can you do it for free? No, you can't. No one person can. They are nice enough to take the time and effort to produce to give us hundreds of hours of entertainment. They deserve compensation for it. They don't produce our entertainment because they like to see us happy. They do it because they trying to make a living. if 100% of people downloaded their games for free they would have to get a job doing something els. Filling out TPS reports and what not. With out money backing games we all still be playing break out and pong. Money drives the industry.
Posted by Juim on Mon Mar 24th at 3:11pm 2008
Why do you think that Fishy?
I see no reason to delete an ongoing intelligent discussion due to content. The fact of the matter is that there is no black and white yet with reguard to this subject. Almost every aspect of this particular topic is open, as you can see, to interpretation. No one here is pandering freeware, flaming, or linking to any warez. It's a discussion.
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Posted by Captain Terror on Mon Mar 24th at 3:30pm 2008
I'm sure the record/movie companies would staunchly disagree, since they would feel no moral dilemma in selling me the same content 2 or 3 or more times.
Redwood: I don't think it's been proven that anybody has gone out of business due to piracy, despite the money they waste trying to combat it. I wouldn't use the arguement record labels and video game manufacturers are poor just yet. ; )
i'm not saying it's right, i'm just saying these companies aren't starving, that's all.
Posted by Juim on Mon Mar 24th at 3:41pm 2008
So in essence, you feel that it's up to you to determine when profit should cease for a product?.
They have more than enough money, so I should get it for free?.
What about format crossovers?. You don't get a free DVD player just because they put the movie on DVD. You go out and buy the DVD player. Then, when they release it on Blu-ray, you go and buy that player. Every time a manufacturer updates it's format, it's at an expense. If they have previously sold ten million units on VHS, should they be obligated to offer you a no cost upgrade?
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Posted by Captain Terror on Mon Mar 24th at 4:30pm 2008
So in essence, you feel that it's up to you to determine when profit should cease for a product?
if you're persistent in descending into the direction of melodrama, than i simply won't respond to your posts any more. plus your over generalizing, but yeah, if there making a healthy living by overcharging in the first place, i guess i don't care that much.
but once again, let me make this clear: i'm not saying i'm right, or if i feel my views are morally justified, i'm just saying i can't be f**ked to care for a company that charges $50 dollars for a video game, sells millions of copies, and then says piracy is some kind of threat to their existence.
Posted by Gwil on Mon Mar 24th at 4:36pm 2008
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Posted by Juim on Mon Mar 24th at 4:49pm 2008
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