? quote:
Redwood: I don't think it's been proven that anybody has gone out of business due to piracy, despite the money they waste trying to combat it. I wouldn't use the arguement record labels and video game manufacturers are poor just yet. ; )
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by RedWood on Mon Mar 24th at 6:19pm 2008
Posted by RedWood on Mon Mar 24th at 6:19pm 2008
I never said anyone has. I was just giving examples.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Mar 24th at 7:08pm 2008
Isn't that the base of our economy?
A type-setter, whose skills became useless when computers started to do his job automatically, didn't sue the people who started using layout programs. Restaurants might have felt the impact of microwave ovens. MS Office might be angry at Open Office. Film studios tried to sue VHS-recorder manufacturers.
In the end nobody could help them. Nobody should have helped them. What would "help" have looked like, anyway? Making layout programs illegal? Microwave meals only purchasable in restaurants? Forcing Open Office to put a price on its software? Banning VHS recorders?
The market simply changed. Why should software get any special treatment? And I don't quite see the (melo)dramatic "change" you hear from the industry. I'm sure there's an impact, but what do you want to do? Preach to the pirates? Filter all internet traffic in the spirit of the Great Firewall of China?
Some developers are already starting to understand the market, and the update-services and community management seems to be a very effective step (Valve/Steam is a successful business). But the pirate-witch-hunt is simply not the way to go IMHO.
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Mar 24th at 7:08pm 2008
? quote:
So in essence, you feel that it's up to you to determine when profit should cease for a product?
Isn't that the base of our economy?
A type-setter, whose skills became useless when computers started to do his job automatically, didn't sue the people who started using layout programs. Restaurants might have felt the impact of microwave ovens. MS Office might be angry at Open Office. Film studios tried to sue VHS-recorder manufacturers.
In the end nobody could help them. Nobody should have helped them. What would "help" have looked like, anyway? Making layout programs illegal? Microwave meals only purchasable in restaurants? Forcing Open Office to put a price on its software? Banning VHS recorders?
The market simply changed. Why should software get any special treatment? And I don't quite see the (melo)dramatic "change" you hear from the industry. I'm sure there's an impact, but what do you want to do? Preach to the pirates? Filter all internet traffic in the spirit of the Great Firewall of China?
Some developers are already starting to understand the market, and the update-services and community management seems to be a very effective step (Valve/Steam is a successful business). But the pirate-witch-hunt is simply not the way to go IMHO.
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by fishy on Tue Mar 25th at 12:21am 2008
Posted by fishy on Tue Mar 25th at 12:21am 2008
Juim, I didn't mean that I thought there was anything bad about your question. I realise that you and yours probably bore the brunt of the 'cash for internet royalties' argument, so I'm not surprised at your interest in the subject. I was just a bit worried that an open invite to justify piracy would result in lots of, well, justifications for piracy; something that's always been frowned on by them upstairs.
i eat paint
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Le Chief on Tue Mar 25th at 2:48am 2008
Posted by Le Chief on Tue Mar 25th at 2:48am 2008
I think the main motive for anybody who is pirating something is money. Whether your burning music for a freind to listen to, or you burning it for a freind because you want to play multiplayer or something, or you burning it to make money which is wrong wrong wrong!! Your doing it to basically avoid paying the money or wrongly making money off somebody else's work. I mean if everybody had unlimited supply of cash, I don't think many people would still be pirating. Its always much better to get the product in a nice shiny box with all the manuals and a disc rather than some download off the internet that could be bugged.
I have burnt things many times, even though I know it is wrong and I really avoid it as much as possible. Sometimes my freinds want to borrow games from me and I don't like my games being taken away from me, so I just burn them a copy. Just recently I downloaded the Adobe Master Sweet (photoshop.. dreamweaver.. flash..) because I need it for school. I am a student, I don't have a job, its craziness to think I would buy such an expansive product.
I mean sure, when I get a reliable job, I will buy these things (and expect my freinds to aswell) but.. I kind of feel it to be unfair if I was expected to pay for something like the Adobe Master Sweet in my circumstances.
I have burnt things many times, even though I know it is wrong and I really avoid it as much as possible. Sometimes my freinds want to borrow games from me and I don't like my games being taken away from me, so I just burn them a copy. Just recently I downloaded the Adobe Master Sweet (photoshop.. dreamweaver.. flash..) because I need it for school. I am a student, I don't have a job, its craziness to think I would buy such an expansive product.
I mean sure, when I get a reliable job, I will buy these things (and expect my freinds to aswell) but.. I kind of feel it to be unfair if I was expected to pay for something like the Adobe Master Sweet in my circumstances.
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Cassius on Tue Mar 25th at 3:11am 2008
Posted by Cassius on Tue Mar 25th at 3:11am 2008
Is piracy wrong? I'd say it is, in a minor way. I'd say its a misdeed on the order of swearing in front of a child or cutting someone in line. You should keep from doing it, but it really warrants no ethical angst.
Piracy's moral dimension isn't it's most important one. The better question, I think, is as to why people have recourse to illegal firesharing. Napster, Kazaa et al became popular because they offered the most convenient means at the time for procuring music. iTunes has supplanted them (I don't have numbers on this, but my impression is that it has) because it offers even more convenience than earlier piracy programs had. It's more widely available and stable than its illegal alternatives; the price it asks per song is negligible; and, of course, the law permits it.
My thought is that internet users will seek convenience above all else. When the market can't provide that, users will procure it for themselves.
Piracy's moral dimension isn't it's most important one. The better question, I think, is as to why people have recourse to illegal firesharing. Napster, Kazaa et al became popular because they offered the most convenient means at the time for procuring music. iTunes has supplanted them (I don't have numbers on this, but my impression is that it has) because it offers even more convenience than earlier piracy programs had. It's more widely available and stable than its illegal alternatives; the price it asks per song is negligible; and, of course, the law permits it.
My thought is that internet users will seek convenience above all else. When the market can't provide that, users will procure it for themselves.
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by wil5on on Tue Mar 25th at 12:08pm 2008
My point, which you seem to be missing, is that consumers shouldn't be held responsible for the producers not taking measures (or as is happening now, taking inappropriate measures) to prevent piracy. You seem to be equating piracy with theft, which is not valid. Nobody is bashing the salesman and stealing his product, theyre just going to the free, equally good alternative instead because he isnt doing anything for them except putting it in a fancy bottle.
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Posted by wil5on on Tue Mar 25th at 12:08pm 2008
? quote:
Can you produce a game at the same quality that Valve or some other developer produces them? Can you do it for free? No, you can't. No one person can. They are nice enough to take the time and effort to produce to give us hundreds of hours of entertainment. They deserve compensation for it. They don't produce our entertainment because they like to see us happy. They do it because they trying to make a living. if 100% of people downloaded their games for free they would have to get a job doing something els. Filling out TPS reports and what not. With out money backing games we all still be playing break out and pong. Money drives the industry.
My point, which you seem to be missing, is that consumers shouldn't be held responsible for the producers not taking measures (or as is happening now, taking inappropriate measures) to prevent piracy. You seem to be equating piracy with theft, which is not valid. Nobody is bashing the salesman and stealing his product, theyre just going to the free, equally good alternative instead because he isnt doing anything for them except putting it in a fancy bottle.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Cash Car Star on Tue Mar 25th at 6:10pm 2008
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Posted by Cash Car Star on Tue Mar 25th at 6:10pm 2008
There's a lot of programs out there which are very powerful and the industry standard when you get into professional development. These products are priced very high because a purchase doesn't just include the software, it includes the license and extra support. These two things are something a professional business would need, but an amateur won't. For a big Hollywood special effects company, tossing over $500 down on a 3d modeling program is easily worth it. For a hobbyist, that's absurd.
When these companies fail to offer a product for personal use at a greatly reduced price, I feel they are tacitly approving of piracy amongst amateurs. The reason is this: if they don't, then the amateurs are going to use a different program. Tomorrow's professionals are today's amateurs, and if they all shift to a different program, guess who just found they can't move their product?
When these companies fail to offer a product for personal use at a greatly reduced price, I feel they are tacitly approving of piracy amongst amateurs. The reason is this: if they don't, then the amateurs are going to use a different program. Tomorrow's professionals are today's amateurs, and if they all shift to a different program, guess who just found they can't move their product?
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Naklajat on Tue Mar 25th at 7:37pm 2008
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Posted by Naklajat on Tue Mar 25th at 7:37pm 2008
I think the term 'piracy' is a strange choice for this. It's not as if people are boarding anyone's frigate, tying them up and/or forcing them to walk the plank then making off with their booty. 
I think information isn't something you can or should restrict or tax or in some cases criminalize (like cracked software, or napster). The problem with illegal downloading is that someone wrote that program or performed that song and want to be able to get paid for their work; One gets for free what one should pay for.
Ideally everything could be free and everyone could live happily ever after but this is not utopia. The world's economy is based on capitalism and when people are getting things for free that they ought to be paying money for there's someone who's NOT getting what they've earned, and someone getting something they haven't earned.
'Piracy' is commercially unfair and socially irresponsible, and I'm not feigning innocence here. I think calling it protected under free speech or what have you is kind of abstract and doesn't make it right in any case, but there's no realistic way to stop it right now without losing some of that too.
I do agree with the argument that some programs priced for commercial use are actually a benefit to the company in question when hobbyists and amateurs use them, but I think this is a boundary case. I'd be willing to bet the two most-downloaded items are music and games, neither of which benefit from people giving away countless hours of their work and toil for free and without permission, except in a "making people happy" way but thats total bulls**t really.
Like I said I'm not pretending to be innocent, just telling it like it is (from my perspective).
I think information isn't something you can or should restrict or tax or in some cases criminalize (like cracked software, or napster). The problem with illegal downloading is that someone wrote that program or performed that song and want to be able to get paid for their work; One gets for free what one should pay for.
Ideally everything could be free and everyone could live happily ever after but this is not utopia. The world's economy is based on capitalism and when people are getting things for free that they ought to be paying money for there's someone who's NOT getting what they've earned, and someone getting something they haven't earned.
'Piracy' is commercially unfair and socially irresponsible, and I'm not feigning innocence here. I think calling it protected under free speech or what have you is kind of abstract and doesn't make it right in any case, but there's no realistic way to stop it right now without losing some of that too.
I do agree with the argument that some programs priced for commercial use are actually a benefit to the company in question when hobbyists and amateurs use them, but I think this is a boundary case. I'd be willing to bet the two most-downloaded items are music and games, neither of which benefit from people giving away countless hours of their work and toil for free and without permission, except in a "making people happy" way but thats total bulls**t really.
Like I said I'm not pretending to be innocent, just telling it like it is (from my perspective).
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by RedWood on Wed Mar 26th at 7:18pm 2008
Their is no alternative to a music cd, game or a movie dvd. Say you want a new Foo Fighters album but you don't want to pay for it. What free alternative do you have? A tape recording of a garage band? No, i want the Foo Fighters. So if you download it, buy what stretch of the imagination is that not stealing? Is it not stealing because they didn't take the proper measures to keep me form down loading their music? If you say yes it is the same as saying if the door of someones house is unlocked and no one is home then it's ok to walk in and grab a few things.
(I'm trying to sound as little hostile as possible)
Posted by RedWood on Wed Mar 26th at 7:18pm 2008
? quote:
My point, which you seem to be missing, is that consumers shouldn't be held responsible for the producers not taking measures (or as is happening now, taking inappropriate measures) to prevent piracy. You seem to be equating piracy with theft, which is not valid. Nobody is bashing the salesman and stealing his product, theyre just going to the free, equally good alternative instead because he isnt doing anything for them except putting it in a fancy bottle.
(I'm trying to sound as little hostile as possible)
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Juim on Wed Mar 26th at 7:56pm 2008
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Posted by Juim on Wed Mar 26th at 7:56pm 2008
It is here where I agree with Reaper47,.... somewhat. What the producers are doing now is trying to prevent me from handing a CD I purchased to my friend for their listening pleasure. They are taking advantage of the digital marketplace by encoding their product with all sorts of nonsense, and attacking clueless individuals with horrendeous lawsuits to "make Examples" of them. It is also the producers,(and their lawyers) who make it impossible to sync my Zune with Windows Media Player.Both Microsoft Products.(there is a cheat program out there, but it's on principle that I refuse to use it).
There has to be a happy medium. If I want to file share with my buddy who has an Ipod, well why should'nt I be able to?(I think Ipod lets users temporarily share for previews, but then you have to buy it. I think thats fair). I remember copying my LP's to cassette for friends years ago, and there was'nt a poor rock star in the house. No one ever complained about it untill the internet brought accessibillity to the forefront, and people started realizing with digital accuracy how much they were missing out on.
Does Metallica deserve a royalty from me because I share their musical goodness with a friend?.(Note: I would never do such a thing, 'cause they suck, but it's just an example kids).
It is with this in mind that I side for now with the "Pirates of Music". Until the music Industry stops gratuitus profit mongering in the name of Intellectual property, I will hold music copyright issues in my "not too important" brain folder.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by satchmo on Wed Mar 26th at 8:17pm 2008
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Posted by satchmo on Wed Mar 26th at 8:17pm 2008
If I know I can do something that I can get away with it, I would do it, unless it directly hurts someone.
I have actually never pirated a game, because I support the game developers. I *want* to pay for them.
I won't even download and play a crappy game, even if it's free. Because it's just not worth wasting my time with it.
On the other hand, I have pirated plenty of softwares. Because I need to use them and I don't agree that I have to pay hundreds of dollars for them. They're just not worth that much.
I have actually never pirated a game, because I support the game developers. I *want* to pay for them.
I won't even download and play a crappy game, even if it's free. Because it's just not worth wasting my time with it.
On the other hand, I have pirated plenty of softwares. Because I need to use them and I don't agree that I have to pay hundreds of dollars for them. They're just not worth that much.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Thu Mar 27th at 2:09am 2008
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Posted by Yak_Fighter on Thu Mar 27th at 2:09am 2008
? quoting Juim
((text two posts up))
Don't you work in the movie industry? All of these arguments can be used to justify pirating movies just as easily as music...
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Juim on Thu Mar 27th at 12:36pm 2008
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Posted by Juim on Thu Mar 27th at 12:36pm 2008
Yes I do work in the biz, and I still pay for everything. (I just spent 65.00 yesterday on music downloads). I simply don't have much empathy for the producers and their current arsenal of copyright BS.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Mar 28th at 4:26am 2008
So.. does this mean that you are against pirating games.. but ok with other pirating?
Posted by Le Chief on Fri Mar 28th at 4:26am 2008
? quote:
If I know I can do something that I can get away with it, I would do it, unless it directly hurts someone.
I have actually never pirated a game, because I support the game developers. I *want* to pay for them.
I won't even download and play a crappy game, even if it's free. Because it's just not worth wasting my time with it.
On the other hand, I have pirated plenty of softwares. Because I need to use them and I don't agree that I have to pay hundreds of dollars for them. They're just not worth that much.
I have actually never pirated a game, because I support the game developers. I *want* to pay for them.
I won't even download and play a crappy game, even if it's free. Because it's just not worth wasting my time with it.
On the other hand, I have pirated plenty of softwares. Because I need to use them and I don't agree that I have to pay hundreds of dollars for them. They're just not worth that much.
So.. does this mean that you are against pirating games.. but ok with other pirating?
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Crono on Fri Mar 28th at 6:55am 2008
Posted by Crono on Fri Mar 28th at 6:55am 2008
He's saying he thinks more effort and time goes into developing an entertainment title rather than another piece of software and that if a specific game is bad, it isn't worth his time while he feels he "has" to use some specific piece of software. Both issues are sort of bulls**t.
The only software I have problems with are the ones written with almost no modifications save a few components and then are sold for several hundred dollars and flooded into the market as the new standard of some kind to force you to buy it. Especially when large development studios rarely fix previously existing exploits and major problems.
The other side of the coin is this, regarding software, if there's a piece of software you need and you don't want to pay for it, there is almost always a multiplatform freeware alternative you can freely download that you should try. The most commonly needed applications have, in some cases, better alternatives, but there seems to be a name brand association with software that I find bizarre. Because it says Adobe or Microsoft, it's "better" ... which contradicts the reason why people want to pirate it in the first place.
I'll be perfectly honest, I think the largest rip off artists in all of consumerism are record labels. It's one of the only mediums where the price has not scaled with the price of the technology, effort, or money put into the project. Especially considering the recording artists don't even get 50% of the profits, and make no mistake that the profits are plentiful.
I also have a large problem with entertainment studios releasing a product multiple times with different specs just to get people to buy it more. Yes, I want the one with the best audio ... thanks for releasing that one last ... asshole.
The only software I have problems with are the ones written with almost no modifications save a few components and then are sold for several hundred dollars and flooded into the market as the new standard of some kind to force you to buy it. Especially when large development studios rarely fix previously existing exploits and major problems.
The other side of the coin is this, regarding software, if there's a piece of software you need and you don't want to pay for it, there is almost always a multiplatform freeware alternative you can freely download that you should try. The most commonly needed applications have, in some cases, better alternatives, but there seems to be a name brand association with software that I find bizarre. Because it says Adobe or Microsoft, it's "better" ... which contradicts the reason why people want to pirate it in the first place.
I'll be perfectly honest, I think the largest rip off artists in all of consumerism are record labels. It's one of the only mediums where the price has not scaled with the price of the technology, effort, or money put into the project. Especially considering the recording artists don't even get 50% of the profits, and make no mistake that the profits are plentiful.
I also have a large problem with entertainment studios releasing a product multiple times with different specs just to get people to buy it more. Yes, I want the one with the best audio ... thanks for releasing that one last ... asshole.
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Fjorn on Sun Mar 30th at 1:49pm 2008
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Posted by Fjorn on Sun Mar 30th at 1:49pm 2008
I feel, when discussing piracy, that you have to look at just who is pirating it. There are multiple groups who prate the same thing for different reasons. Lets look at video game pirating for example.
So, we have a game, Awesomesauce 5.
By far, the largest group of people with this game paid for it and own a legitimate copy.
But we are looking at pirates, so. "Illiegal" downloads of the game. This group are not in any sort of order, just as I put them in the textbox.
First group are people legitimiately replacing a broken CD or DVD. the companies already got their money from them, no money lost here.
Second group are the people who, for whatever reason, woudln't buy it anyways. If the game wasn't available to download, they wouldn't buy it, they'd just go without. No money lost here as well.
The third group are the people who can't buy it, so much pirate it. Obviously, if they can't buy it, the companies lose no money from them pirating it.
The fourth, and final group, are those who would buy it, except that they can download it for free. This is the only group that actually costs the developers and manufacturers money.
You can apply these same groups to everything, with minor variation. The problem is this. People touting the "horrors of piracy" count all 4 groups as costing them money. And, in my experience, it tends to be the second smallest group. The smallest being the first.
If they just ignored piracy, rather than spend billions of dollars trying to combat it, they'd actually be making more money.
Now, as for piracy being wrong? I think that, if you can afford it, and the game is good, that you should pay for it. If you can't afford it, ehhhhhh....
Personally, I wouldn't download music though. Even free, its still crap.
So, we have a game, Awesomesauce 5.
By far, the largest group of people with this game paid for it and own a legitimate copy.
But we are looking at pirates, so. "Illiegal" downloads of the game. This group are not in any sort of order, just as I put them in the textbox.
First group are people legitimiately replacing a broken CD or DVD. the companies already got their money from them, no money lost here.
Second group are the people who, for whatever reason, woudln't buy it anyways. If the game wasn't available to download, they wouldn't buy it, they'd just go without. No money lost here as well.
The third group are the people who can't buy it, so much pirate it. Obviously, if they can't buy it, the companies lose no money from them pirating it.
The fourth, and final group, are those who would buy it, except that they can download it for free. This is the only group that actually costs the developers and manufacturers money.
You can apply these same groups to everything, with minor variation. The problem is this. People touting the "horrors of piracy" count all 4 groups as costing them money. And, in my experience, it tends to be the second smallest group. The smallest being the first.
If they just ignored piracy, rather than spend billions of dollars trying to combat it, they'd actually be making more money.
Now, as for piracy being wrong? I think that, if you can afford it, and the game is good, that you should pay for it. If you can't afford it, ehhhhhh....
Personally, I wouldn't download music though. Even free, its still crap.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Cash Car Star on Mon Mar 31st at 1:35am 2008
You honestly listen to no music whatsoever? I couldn't imagine such an existence.
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Posted by Cash Car Star on Mon Mar 31st at 1:35am 2008
? quote:
Personally, I wouldn't download music though. Even free, its still crap.
You honestly listen to no music whatsoever? I couldn't imagine such an existence.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Fjorn on Mon Mar 31st at 12:14pm 2008
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Posted by Fjorn on Mon Mar 31st at 12:14pm 2008
Well, honestly, in regarding to most recent music, yes.
Thats not to say that I don't listen to music though. I usually listen to pandora, or video game soundtracks when I do listen to music though.
Thats not to say that I don't listen to music though. I usually listen to pandora, or video game soundtracks when I do listen to music though.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by Cash Car Star on Mon Mar 31st at 3:39pm 2008
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Posted by Cash Car Star on Mon Mar 31st at 3:39pm 2008
You didn't say anything about it being recent music. You just said music in general is crap. There's nothing special about video game soundtracks that make them unpiratable.
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Re: The Official Piracy Thread
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Mar 31st at 5:02pm 2008
Posted by reaper47 on Mon Mar 31st at 5:02pm 2008
Creative threatens custom driver makers.
How dare they making better drivers than the company! It's STEALING!!!1
It's arguments like this that have made me immune to feeling any kind of sympathy towards big corporations. How pathetic.
How dare they making better drivers than the company! It's STEALING!!!1
It's arguments like this that have made me immune to feeling any kind of sympathy towards big corporations. How pathetic.
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