You realise of course that Spain and the UK are more than used to tough anti-terror stances as we've lived with terrorism for ooh, most of the 20th century.
Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 14th at 5:05pm 2008
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Posted by Gwil on Wed May 14th at 5:05pm 2008
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Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 14th at 6:23pm 2008
Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 14th at 6:23pm 2008
Well, we lived with the worst regime in history for a large part of the 20th century. Beats terrorism by a lenght, whithout belitteling its horror.
You can do so much with the stockpiles of data that is collected today. If it only gets into the wrong hands once, there is no way to undo it.
It's a bit like environmental protection. Of course, you won't die tomorrow if someone builds a chemistry factory next to your house... but maybe you get leukaemia at the age of 45 as a result, which isn't fun at all. And if that doesn't happen, it, together with millions of other factories, might cause a climate change that will destroy crops in the year 2070 and cause a massive war for food.
If you ask me, "what is the direct danger of this to you, right now", I couldn't answer. But it's pretty obvious that, compared to the little anti-terror oportunities, this is a hugely invasive raid into our privacy, and probably a gateway measure to much worse forms of control.
You can do so much with the stockpiles of data that is collected today. If it only gets into the wrong hands once, there is no way to undo it.
It's a bit like environmental protection. Of course, you won't die tomorrow if someone builds a chemistry factory next to your house... but maybe you get leukaemia at the age of 45 as a result, which isn't fun at all. And if that doesn't happen, it, together with millions of other factories, might cause a climate change that will destroy crops in the year 2070 and cause a massive war for food.
If you ask me, "what is the direct danger of this to you, right now", I couldn't answer. But it's pretty obvious that, compared to the little anti-terror oportunities, this is a hugely invasive raid into our privacy, and probably a gateway measure to much worse forms of control.
Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by Gwil on Thu May 15th at 11:54am 2008
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Posted by Gwil on Thu May 15th at 11:54am 2008
I was addressing more Pvt Scythes conceptions of terrorism which seem to match that of the Americans, ie that ongoing terrorism is a new concept which came in under "al-Qaeda".
It is quite obvious that fingerprinting/DNA collection is open to abuse, and it only needs to be abused by one faction on one occasion to make the arguments against it valid. However, I just can't see that happening. Liberal democracies are just too far advanced and entrenched in the modern world that a return or embracement of totalitarian police states is an exotic oft-wished dream of those obsessed with global conspiracies and cynicism.
Sorry, I support DNA profiling, fingerprinting as tools of the state, just as I support more strict policing overall. I am 110% confident that the machinery of surveillance can not and will not be abused. If there were any situation where extremist parties gained power in Western Europe it would seem likely society would be in an anarchic state already, lessening the ability of any government to play Big Brother to its proles.
It is quite obvious that fingerprinting/DNA collection is open to abuse, and it only needs to be abused by one faction on one occasion to make the arguments against it valid. However, I just can't see that happening. Liberal democracies are just too far advanced and entrenched in the modern world that a return or embracement of totalitarian police states is an exotic oft-wished dream of those obsessed with global conspiracies and cynicism.
Sorry, I support DNA profiling, fingerprinting as tools of the state, just as I support more strict policing overall. I am 110% confident that the machinery of surveillance can not and will not be abused. If there were any situation where extremist parties gained power in Western Europe it would seem likely society would be in an anarchic state already, lessening the ability of any government to play Big Brother to its proles.
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Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by Yak_Fighter on Thu May 15th at 7:36pm 2008
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Posted by Yak_Fighter on Thu May 15th at 7:36pm 2008
? quoting Gwil
I was addressing more Pvt Scythes conceptions of terrorism which seem to match that of the Americans, ie that ongoing terrorism is a new concept which came in under "al-Qaeda".
pfft, the IRA and the ETA are freedom fighters, what are you talking about 
But hey now, we Americans effectively dealt with our domestic terrorists over a hundred years ago instead of letting them linger on like our European counterparts. Maybe there wouldn't be ongoing terrorism if you just put some effort into it! 
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Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by Gwil on Thu May 15th at 7:43pm 2008
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Posted by Gwil on Thu May 15th at 7:43pm 2008
I've often advocated reinvading Ireland and kicking some Catholic ass but it doesn't seem to go down too well with Irish people, or well, anybody generally.
Maybe we should just go kick in the Frenchs teeth again, they're always supporting liberal freedom fighter style groups.
Maybe we should just go kick in the Frenchs teeth again, they're always supporting liberal freedom fighter style groups.
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Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by RedWood on Wed May 21st at 4:36am 2008
Posted by RedWood on Wed May 21st at 4:36am 2008
just found this...
http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/21/uk-planning-to-monitor-and-record-every-phone-call-web-page-an/
good luck...
http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/21/uk-planning-to-monitor-and-record-every-phone-call-web-page-an/
good luck...
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 21st at 10:21am 2008
Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 21st at 10:21am 2008
Even more ridiculous when compared to this recent scandal:
http://news.cnet.com/U.K.-governments-lost-data-worth-billions-to-criminals/2100-1029_3-6220725.html
I wish I had your confidence in government officials, Gwil.
http://news.cnet.com/U.K.-governments-lost-data-worth-billions-to-criminals/2100-1029_3-6220725.html
I wish I had your confidence in government officials, Gwil.
Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by Gwil on Wed May 21st at 12:32pm 2008
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Posted by Gwil on Wed May 21st at 12:32pm 2008
First story, in draft - unlikely to pass. All the recent extra security measures have struggled greatly in the face of Parliament/Lords, and I don't see that as any exception. Incidentally, the Government has used wire taps in cases involving the IRA and "al-Qaeda" already, I can't remember whether they were admissable as evidence.
No offence guys, but I think you're both being extremely naive in assuming that our Government (or any government democratically elected or otherwise) plays by the rules, especially in issues regarding national security. If the intelligence services need to obtain information and can likely achieve that in an underhand and undetectable method, I am certain they will do or have done so already. Thinking that a government will stop engaging in certain activities because it hasn't quite made the statute is an admirable confidence in your politicians which I wish I could share, but experience of terrorism, the cold war and other issues would suggest strongly to me the Government here and elsewhere is not the honourable force we would be led to believe is operating by code of law and glossy manifestos.
As for the second link, reaper - it's nothing to do with "Government surveillance". The details lost on those CDs are fairly routine (and in actuality the dangers of being abused were massively blown out of proportion, because well, it made a good story). If anything, the issues exposed by that clanger were more representing how INSECURE the government is, a sharp contrast to any Orwellian state which would never let such a catastrophe happen. The procedures in place for movement of data were inadequate, and using junior officials with poor understanding of encryption and data security was shown to be a mistake.
If anything, as I said before, the data loss scandal demonstrates to me that any advance toward surveillance states would be heavily scuppered by the inefficiencies and mismanagement of heavily layered bureacracy.
Just the other day, there was a report by the Police Federation which indicated that CCTV (we're "the most watched nation on earth") had helped solve less than 5% of crimes, and monitors were often not observed and tapes were recorded over continually*, making their use as gatherers of evidence or sinister eyes of the state seem greatly exaggerated.
*Take up of digital sources by CCTV operators was also low - making images either inaccessible due to overwriting, or of too poor a quality to be of any use to anybody.
No offence guys, but I think you're both being extremely naive in assuming that our Government (or any government democratically elected or otherwise) plays by the rules, especially in issues regarding national security. If the intelligence services need to obtain information and can likely achieve that in an underhand and undetectable method, I am certain they will do or have done so already. Thinking that a government will stop engaging in certain activities because it hasn't quite made the statute is an admirable confidence in your politicians which I wish I could share, but experience of terrorism, the cold war and other issues would suggest strongly to me the Government here and elsewhere is not the honourable force we would be led to believe is operating by code of law and glossy manifestos.
As for the second link, reaper - it's nothing to do with "Government surveillance". The details lost on those CDs are fairly routine (and in actuality the dangers of being abused were massively blown out of proportion, because well, it made a good story). If anything, the issues exposed by that clanger were more representing how INSECURE the government is, a sharp contrast to any Orwellian state which would never let such a catastrophe happen. The procedures in place for movement of data were inadequate, and using junior officials with poor understanding of encryption and data security was shown to be a mistake.
If anything, as I said before, the data loss scandal demonstrates to me that any advance toward surveillance states would be heavily scuppered by the inefficiencies and mismanagement of heavily layered bureacracy.
Just the other day, there was a report by the Police Federation which indicated that CCTV (we're "the most watched nation on earth") had helped solve less than 5% of crimes, and monitors were often not observed and tapes were recorded over continually*, making their use as gatherers of evidence or sinister eyes of the state seem greatly exaggerated.
*Take up of digital sources by CCTV operators was also low - making images either inaccessible due to overwriting, or of too poor a quality to be of any use to anybody.
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Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 21st at 4:39pm 2008
Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 21st at 4:39pm 2008
Hmm, I'm not sure if I like being called "naive" in this case, especially.
I'm sure you have spent more time analysing politics and history than me, Gwil, already having jumped further in your assumptions so you are critical towards what might seem almost like the "mainstream" view today, that surveillance is evil, etc.
But, tbh, I do think that in this case, it is that simple. Everything bad in history started slowly and seemingly harmless. And I don't even want to stress the "history is repeating" cliche. The outcomes, in this case, will likely be completely different since the speed of which data flows has increased so dramatically.
Anyway, I think that, although it might not be a realistic scenario, it's healthy to be sceptical in this case, to support a group of people who think that there might be a danger. Do I think that it's likely for Europe to develop another totalitarian state within my lifetime? No. Fortunately, I feel like this is very unlikely.
But, let's say the likelyhood is 1%. That's picking a number between 1 and 100 and chose the same as me. If you picked 65, you got your totalitarian regime. I think it's far from impossible that this new abuse of technology backfires. Like free, clean energy turned into Tschernobyl. I understand your position Gwil, it might be more sound, statistically, but I'm not ashamed for sticking to the shouting masses here.
I'm sure you have spent more time analysing politics and history than me, Gwil, already having jumped further in your assumptions so you are critical towards what might seem almost like the "mainstream" view today, that surveillance is evil, etc.
But, tbh, I do think that in this case, it is that simple. Everything bad in history started slowly and seemingly harmless. And I don't even want to stress the "history is repeating" cliche. The outcomes, in this case, will likely be completely different since the speed of which data flows has increased so dramatically.
Anyway, I think that, although it might not be a realistic scenario, it's healthy to be sceptical in this case, to support a group of people who think that there might be a danger. Do I think that it's likely for Europe to develop another totalitarian state within my lifetime? No. Fortunately, I feel like this is very unlikely.
But, let's say the likelyhood is 1%. That's picking a number between 1 and 100 and chose the same as me. If you picked 65, you got your totalitarian regime. I think it's far from impossible that this new abuse of technology backfires. Like free, clean energy turned into Tschernobyl. I understand your position Gwil, it might be more sound, statistically, but I'm not ashamed for sticking to the shouting masses here.
Re: Fingerprints on all Austrian passports by 2009
Posted by Pvt.Scythe on Thu May 22nd at 10:35am 2008
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Posted by Pvt.Scythe on Thu May 22nd at 10:35am 2008
The thing is that if data is stored somewhere, even for relatively short periods of time, it is still there. And if it's there then there's always some way to get access to it. I'm not only talking about the CCTV here.
Let's just say that government X makes a database of all its citizens fingerprints. Then there's a criminal faction Y that does break in gigs for various houses. Faction Y finds out that rich person Z has fingerprint locks on his computer, safe and even in some of the doors in his house. So what faction Y does is that it hacks to a government database, steals Zs fingerprint information and produces latex copies of Zs fingerprints(some fingerprint readers can be fooled even with a right sized print of a fingerprint). After that faction Y can go and loot Zs house at ease.
This is a completely sound scenario as no matter what kind of system is in question "there's always a way in".
And I'm aware that UK has had its terrorist problems in the past(as well as Spain). There were some problems in far east a couple of hundred years ago when British Imperium was at its pinnacle with some muslim terrorists, if I remember correctly. Yet what I said before about the hornets nest applies here as well. You did go and invade that country in the first place and if I remember right you did invade Ireland as well(from what I've gathered IRA has since stopped with the bombings, I'm not aware of the situation with Basque separatists in Spain though). So no I don't live in some laa-laa-land where terrorism didn't exist before 9/11, I simply focus on more current events, because that's what's affecting the situation currently.
Let's just say that government X makes a database of all its citizens fingerprints. Then there's a criminal faction Y that does break in gigs for various houses. Faction Y finds out that rich person Z has fingerprint locks on his computer, safe and even in some of the doors in his house. So what faction Y does is that it hacks to a government database, steals Zs fingerprint information and produces latex copies of Zs fingerprints(some fingerprint readers can be fooled even with a right sized print of a fingerprint). After that faction Y can go and loot Zs house at ease.
This is a completely sound scenario as no matter what kind of system is in question "there's always a way in".
And I'm aware that UK has had its terrorist problems in the past(as well as Spain). There were some problems in far east a couple of hundred years ago when British Imperium was at its pinnacle with some muslim terrorists, if I remember correctly. Yet what I said before about the hornets nest applies here as well. You did go and invade that country in the first place and if I remember right you did invade Ireland as well(from what I've gathered IRA has since stopped with the bombings, I'm not aware of the situation with Basque separatists in Spain though). So no I don't live in some laa-laa-land where terrorism didn't exist before 9/11, I simply focus on more current events, because that's what's affecting the situation currently.
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