The kind that makes you go
!And thats a good thing! Awesome work man.. it looks
GREAT!
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by G4MER on Mon Apr 20th at 7:39pm 2009
Posted by G4MER on Mon Apr 20th at 7:39pm 2009
What Kind of crap is this?
The kind that makes you go !
And thats a good thing! Awesome work man.. it looks GREAT!
The kind that makes you go
!And thats a good thing! Awesome work man.. it looks
GREAT!
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Mon Apr 20th at 10:57pm 2009
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Posted by Riven on Mon Apr 20th at 10:57pm 2009
@>Muhnay: lmao
-Aaron, that is looking really good! I like what you did with the actual platform. Looking very nice. -The tiles look good after all! The shelving unit on the left of the platform (looking towards the tracks) fits in nicely too.
Can you jump up on the platform? or is there a staircase around the back or something that we can't see. If there isn't I'd recommend adding one. It would have to be 'sunken into' the platform so as not to hit the tracks. Gameplay-wise, you should 'invite' the player down below the tracks. let them know there's something worth going for back there. Also, If you don't I will, but we can't let the players run up and down the train tunnel. I want that to be a non-playable space because as it's looking now, it's really long and boring. The only connections are the train stations, so I'd wish it if the players couldn't access the tunnel unless they were actually on the train. The trains doors would 'release' the players once they entered a train station, So like in haymaker's trains station, he added Combine shield walls. And in his other one, the train enters on a monorail, which I imagine will be electrified so as not to allow the player to walk their way down it too far (therefore discouraging them) -I'll add sparks and whatnot to make it apparent that it is dangerous.
-You already told me what you have in mind for the dead-end half of the tracks, and that's fine. Whenever you can, just send the .vmf to me via my e-mail, you have it...
-Looking good! Sadly, I have no updates, getting caught up in school and other non-digital interactions
The little work I have done isn't worth showing at the moment, but I actually think I'll have some more time to work on this next weekend and get the tracks done... (finally) Remember, there other positions open for anyone interested! Remember when I posted:
^^^All that is still open to anyone interested!
-Aaron, that is looking really good! I like what you did with the actual platform. Looking very nice. -The tiles look good after all! The shelving unit on the left of the platform (looking towards the tracks) fits in nicely too.
Can you jump up on the platform? or is there a staircase around the back or something that we can't see. If there isn't I'd recommend adding one. It would have to be 'sunken into' the platform so as not to hit the tracks. Gameplay-wise, you should 'invite' the player down below the tracks. let them know there's something worth going for back there. Also, If you don't I will, but we can't let the players run up and down the train tunnel. I want that to be a non-playable space because as it's looking now, it's really long and boring. The only connections are the train stations, so I'd wish it if the players couldn't access the tunnel unless they were actually on the train. The trains doors would 'release' the players once they entered a train station, So like in haymaker's trains station, he added Combine shield walls. And in his other one, the train enters on a monorail, which I imagine will be electrified so as not to allow the player to walk their way down it too far (therefore discouraging them) -I'll add sparks and whatnot to make it apparent that it is dangerous.
-You already told me what you have in mind for the dead-end half of the tracks, and that's fine. Whenever you can, just send the .vmf to me via my e-mail, you have it...
-Looking good! Sadly, I have no updates, getting caught up in school and other non-digital interactions
The little work I have done isn't worth showing at the moment, but I actually think I'll have some more time to work on this next weekend and get the tracks done... (finally) Remember, there other positions open for anyone interested! Remember when I posted:Quoting my earlier self
Now, what remains before we can make an Alpha_2 release is:
1. completing construction of train tunnels
2. Complete assembling train and get working with tracks and timing
3. Construct connection hall between Redwood's map and Hlife_hotdog's cave map
4. Construct connection hall between Aaron_da_killa's map and Hlife-Hotdog's "Valve Studios" map
5. Construct connection hall between Aaron_da_killa's map and Riven's map
6. Construct connection hall between Hlife-Hotdog's "Valve Studios" map and Riven's map
7. Construct connection hall between Riven's map and Natus' map
8. Add in spaces for individual trophy models and individual plaque decals.
9. Create Plaque decals and place in map.
Now any of the items in that list I have no problem lending to others to work on individually. There are no deadlines and I don't care who would want to do it. If you have time, you're eligible!
1. completing construction of train tunnels
2. Complete assembling train and get working with tracks and timing
3. Construct connection hall between Redwood's map and Hlife_hotdog's cave map
4. Construct connection hall between Aaron_da_killa's map and Hlife-Hotdog's "Valve Studios" map
5. Construct connection hall between Aaron_da_killa's map and Riven's map
6. Construct connection hall between Hlife-Hotdog's "Valve Studios" map and Riven's map
7. Construct connection hall between Riven's map and Natus' map
8. Add in spaces for individual trophy models and individual plaque decals.
9. Create Plaque decals and place in map.
Now any of the items in that list I have no problem lending to others to work on individually. There are no deadlines and I don't care who would want to do it. If you have time, you're eligible!
^^^All that is still open to anyone interested!
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Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Le Chief on Tue Apr 21st at 1:32am 2009
Posted by Le Chief on Tue Apr 21st at 1:32am 2009
Thanks guys. 
You can if you crouch jump off the tracks, I was thinking about putting a ladder there but I hate the way you have to do ladders in Source so I was going to let you do it
. I'm not even sure how to do it.
That's fine but I think that we should force players to stay out, I really don't like the idea of clips or locking in the player. I think rather we should deter the players from entering the tunnel, best way to do that in my opinion is to kill players who venture in there, perhaps the rails should be electrified after all and we should have sections in the tunnel where the only thing the player can stand on is the rail thus leading to death (monorail as you said), the combine shields are ok I think but I kind of feel like its just a fancy clip brush. This is cool for a few reasons:
- Where not forcing the player not to go in the area so player's shouldn't feel frustrated.
- Player's can go in there if they want but they will die, so it keeps them out.
- It means the railway tunnels in the map are a "mysterious area that people may think about". If I was playing a game and there was lava and on the other side, a mysterious platform seeming leading somewhere cool would I be interested on whats on the other side? Hell yeah, I'd think about it and try and get across. Its much like how some people had an obsession with the mysterious tower on the other side of the lake in the first level of Goldeneye.
Anyway Riven, I'll email you the vmf either tonight or tomorrow, I still need to work on a soundscape and I'm going to fix up a few minor things.
Quoting "Riven"
Can you jump up on the platform?
You can if you crouch jump off the tracks, I was thinking about putting a ladder there but I hate the way you have to do ladders in Source so I was going to let you do it
. I'm not even sure how to do it.Quoting "Riven"
but we can't let the players run up and down the train tunnel. I want that to be a non-playable space because as it's looking now, it's really long and boring.
That's fine but I think that we should force players to stay out, I really don't like the idea of clips or locking in the player. I think rather we should deter the players from entering the tunnel, best way to do that in my opinion is to kill players who venture in there, perhaps the rails should be electrified after all and we should have sections in the tunnel where the only thing the player can stand on is the rail thus leading to death (monorail as you said), the combine shields are ok I think but I kind of feel like its just a fancy clip brush. This is cool for a few reasons:
- Where not forcing the player not to go in the area so player's shouldn't feel frustrated.
- Player's can go in there if they want but they will die, so it keeps them out.
- It means the railway tunnels in the map are a "mysterious area that people may think about". If I was playing a game and there was lava and on the other side, a mysterious platform seeming leading somewhere cool would I be interested on whats on the other side? Hell yeah, I'd think about it and try and get across. Its much like how some people had an obsession with the mysterious tower on the other side of the lake in the first level of Goldeneye.
Anyway Riven, I'll email you the vmf either tonight or tomorrow, I still need to work on a soundscape and I'm going to fix up a few minor things.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by RedWood on Tue Apr 21st at 2:22am 2009
Strange, i didn't get any incoming messages today.
The map is actually half loading dock half I don't know.
I went to think of a name for it and, i realized i didn't remember what it looks like to well. I had to go back to the beginning of this thread for a screen, lol. After a few minutes i came up with "Swing Dock".
You can use that name for the decal. With that name i trust your judgment. Thanks Aaron!
PS: Don't forget to delete that muffed fog entity.
Posted by RedWood on Tue Apr 21st at 2:22am 2009
Quoting aaron_da_killa
Thanks, that exit pathway on the platform is actually leading to your map. I'm going to make a sign in decal form for that pathway like maybe "Loading Depot" or "Warehouse" or whatnot. I was wondering what exactly your map is and if you had any ideas of what you wanted on the sign, after it sort of "belongs" to your level in spirit.
I tried contacting you on steam but it seems you weren't there.
I tried contacting you on steam but it seems you weren't there.
Strange, i didn't get any incoming messages today.
The map is actually half loading dock half I don't know.
I went to think of a name for it and, i realized i didn't remember what it looks like to well. I had to go back to the beginning of this thread for a screen, lol. After a few minutes i came up with "Swing Dock".
You can use that name for the decal. With that name i trust your judgment. Thanks Aaron!
PS: Don't forget to delete that muffed fog entity.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by haymaker on Tue Apr 21st at 4:42am 2009
Posted by haymaker on Tue Apr 21st at 4:42am 2009
Lookin good guys, nice to see some discussion on this.
- Aaron, those screens are gold!yeah baby. The trams themselves are actually pretty low, though. The vmf I had resides on an infected, disconnected HD and I CBA to daisy chain it atm. Riven I wonder if you could quickly open up that file and take a measurement from the top of the rail to the top of the platform? The paths can be raised up, but it might look goofy having a space between the tram and the track, if it needs to be raised enough to be flush...
Also I would love to finish a hallway or do the path_track work, but I don't think I have time, having 2 other maps to get to release before I shut down the map shop in the summer. I'll take stock again mid-may see how Im doing.
edit, something just crossed my mind. It didnt hurt but left me thinking about the default light_environment that was in the original template. That light shows up the most in Redwoods swing-dock windows, and I was curious if there was some wiggle room in there for angles and brightness etc.
- Aaron, those screens are gold!yeah baby. The trams themselves are actually pretty low, though. The vmf I had resides on an infected, disconnected HD and I CBA to daisy chain it atm. Riven I wonder if you could quickly open up that file and take a measurement from the top of the rail to the top of the platform? The paths can be raised up, but it might look goofy having a space between the tram and the track, if it needs to be raised enough to be flush...
Also I would love to finish a hallway or do the path_track work, but I don't think I have time, having 2 other maps to get to release before I shut down the map shop in the summer. I'll take stock again mid-may see how Im doing.
edit, something just crossed my mind. It didnt hurt but left me thinking about the default light_environment that was in the original template. That light shows up the most in Redwoods swing-dock windows, and I was curious if there was some wiggle room in there for angles and brightness etc.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Wed Apr 22nd at 3:51pm 2009
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Posted by Riven on Wed Apr 22nd at 3:51pm 2009
Alrighty, I checked the vmf and in both of your train station entries haymaker, you have the difference between the top of the track to the top of the platform as being only 30 units difference.
Also as of note: The current .vmf and .BSP compile are saved in 6 different locations. My desktop, my laptop, a separate hot-swappable laptop HDD, two flash drives, and a separate external 'backup' HDD. Also, the current working version (as I'm working on it) is instantly mirrored over 3 1TB drives in case of possible hardware failures. So I'm pretty sure I won't be loosing it anytime soon. (each of these locations are also in different places in case of fires or natural disasters). I've had my deal of lost data in the past and don't expect to encounter it again!
Now, talking about the light_environment: What did you have in mind for changes on that haymaker? I'm sure we can tweak it; yea.
-@ RedWood: I think about the fog every time I run through your map. The fog is now universal, so I'm not sure if it'll be coming out now, but once I get the other pathways finished, I'll do some visual passes to see what it looks like without any fog (the whole compilation map that is) not just in your section. So, we'll see.
Also as of note: The current .vmf and .BSP compile are saved in 6 different locations. My desktop, my laptop, a separate hot-swappable laptop HDD, two flash drives, and a separate external 'backup' HDD. Also, the current working version (as I'm working on it) is instantly mirrored over 3 1TB drives in case of possible hardware failures. So I'm pretty sure I won't be loosing it anytime soon. (each of these locations are also in different places in case of fires or natural disasters). I've had my deal of lost data in the past and don't expect to encounter it again!
Now, talking about the light_environment: What did you have in mind for changes on that haymaker? I'm sure we can tweak it; yea.
-@ RedWood: I think about the fog every time I run through your map. The fog is now universal, so I'm not sure if it'll be coming out now, but once I get the other pathways finished, I'll do some visual passes to see what it looks like without any fog (the whole compilation map that is) not just in your section. So, we'll see.
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Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by RedWood on Thu Apr 23rd at 12:20am 2009
Posted by RedWood on Thu Apr 23rd at 12:20am 2009
Having fog is fine. I just don't want it to be as thick as it was when i entered it. Fog wasn't showing on my computer at that time for some unknown reason and thus my entity was far to high with out me knowing it. 
Uhhh, i just checked and i don't have a copy of my entry. I can't remember if i use a light_environment or not. I think i would have know better not to use one because of the compilation map but if i did... I'd like to redo the lighting and send it back as a prefab. Did I use a light_environment or not???
Uhhh, i just checked and i don't have a copy of my entry. I can't remember if i use a light_environment or not. I think i would have know better not to use one because of the compilation map but if i did... I'd like to redo the lighting and send it back as a prefab. Did I use a light_environment or not???
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by haymaker on Thu Apr 23rd at 5:07am 2009
Posted by haymaker on Thu Apr 23rd at 5:07am 2009
yeah Redwood there was a default light_env in the template. Your standalone bsp had a fair amount of light coming through the windows, it made for a nice bright map.
I don't have any suggestions really for alterations to the entity, just curious how it would affect things if it were adjusted to a warmer colour maybe, as default is pretty cold.
Riven, that seems right thanks... Aaron, what would happen if you raised just the track section at the platform to that 30 unit difference?
I don't have any suggestions really for alterations to the entity, just curious how it would affect things if it were adjusted to a warmer colour maybe, as default is pretty cold.
Riven, that seems right thanks... Aaron, what would happen if you raised just the track section at the platform to that 30 unit difference?
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by RedWood on Thu Apr 23rd at 6:13am 2009
Thanks
If there was one on there by default then i probably modified it. I'm worried about conflicting lighting sachems. The shadows i have casted on the wall are important to me. So the pitch and even the color matter to me. I'm sure i can do it all based on light_spots. Does anyone hear have a copy of my entry? I accidentally deleted mine when i reformatted (and boot and nuked) my hard drive. I'd like to take a look at it again. Or i could just get a copy of the compilation map. Ether way.
Posted by RedWood on Thu Apr 23rd at 6:13am 2009
Quoting haymaker
yeah Redwood there was a default light_env in the template. Your standalone bsp had a fair amount of light coming through the windows, it made for a nice bright map.
Thanks
If there was one on there by default then i probably modified it. I'm worried about conflicting lighting sachems. The shadows i have casted on the wall are important to me. So the pitch and even the color matter to me. I'm sure i can do it all based on light_spots. Does anyone hear have a copy of my entry? I accidentally deleted mine when i reformatted (and boot and nuked) my hard drive. I'd like to take a look at it again. Or i could just get a copy of the compilation map. Ether way.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Le Chief on Thu Apr 23rd at 7:51am 2009
Well not much, would just need to modify a few things around it, the player wouldn't be able to crouch jump off the tracks onto the platform anymore. If any adjustments need to be made to the train depot I'm working on I think I'd prefer if the track was sunk as opposed to raising the platform. I don't think I need any adjustments though.. it was a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I checked that everything was the right height for the train.
Posted by Le Chief on Thu Apr 23rd at 7:51am 2009
Quoting haymaker
Aaron, what would happen if you raised just the track section at the platform to that 30 unit difference?
Well not much, would just need to modify a few things around it, the player wouldn't be able to crouch jump off the tracks onto the platform anymore. If any adjustments need to be made to the train depot I'm working on I think I'd prefer if the track was sunk as opposed to raising the platform. I don't think I need any adjustments though.. it was a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure I checked that everything was the right height for the train.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Mon May 25th at 8:40pm 2009
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Posted by Riven on Mon May 25th at 8:40pm 2009
Ok, School's out for Summer! -And now I have less to worry about and can focus on the map! Here's an update of what I am currently working on:
-So we agreed to have a train throughout the map yes? -and because there is a train, there must be a train tunnel. So I hammered out a train tunnel that would span over the map and connect associated areas together. Upon making many test compiles of it (including a 30 min. full lighting compile) The map simply couldn't handle the number of twists and angles of all the track pieces (the actual tunnels themselves, if not lined up to the grid was too much for the engine to bother rendering even when split up). So I swallowed the sour pill and realized that the tunnel geometry would just have to be modeled so that vis could have an easy job. There is literally about 1/2 a Kilometer of track that spans over the course of the map. And in some situations, because the track would take even longer routes to reach some places, I will have to resort to some sneaky techniques to 'teleport' the train and everyone in it through a dark void in the tunnel in order to not have to render some portions of it (see below).
So, with the tunnel almost done in XSI, I'll port it all into hammer as static models and render the outside around them as nodraw boxes so that vis can cut them up accordingly and bask in the rays of an all-orthogonal tunnel.
I must admit, I'm not pro at XSI (or any modeling package for that matter) and it has taken me a great deal to get where I am. I used to do a little modeling back a couple of years ago, so I'm having to re-learn all the controls and schisms involved with trying to get what I want. So, needless to say, I'm re-acquainting myself and am chugging along faster with it as I go.
Ok, here's one final diagram to explain how the track will loop through the level.
-Ok, here we see stations A-C. The train will move from A to B to C and then back to B then back to A. The train will go back and forth through 3 stations rather than make an actual loop, so the middle station will see the most action. In this diagram, you can also see where exactly the train teleports in order to jump from one track to another. The train will teleport in both directions. Once when it is going from A to B and a second time when it is traveling from B to A.
In the long portion of the track, I decided not to teleport it again, as seeing, I'm sure some folks would want some train action. That is to say, the train would speed up along this portion of the track so that it would not take soo long to travel. If players wanted time to cool down or time to plan, they could sit it out in the train during this part. There may be some server issues with this, but that will have to wait until testing. I think reaper has some experience with tracktrains in hl2dm, so maybe he could shed some light on the situation.
There will be one car for the train itself as opposed to two. Two cars would be too much for the server to calculate especially if they are 'anchored' to one another and pivot as they go around corners. I'll admit that it would be cool to jump from one moving car to another, but it would probably too much for the server to render simultaneously, since func_tracktrains are server side.
-Well, there you have it; the latest update on the map. I'd like to have the tunnel models done by the end of the week, if not sooner. If I can get it done in time!
-So we agreed to have a train throughout the map yes? -and because there is a train, there must be a train tunnel. So I hammered out a train tunnel that would span over the map and connect associated areas together. Upon making many test compiles of it (including a 30 min. full lighting compile) The map simply couldn't handle the number of twists and angles of all the track pieces (the actual tunnels themselves, if not lined up to the grid was too much for the engine to bother rendering even when split up). So I swallowed the sour pill and realized that the tunnel geometry would just have to be modeled so that vis could have an easy job. There is literally about 1/2 a Kilometer of track that spans over the course of the map. And in some situations, because the track would take even longer routes to reach some places, I will have to resort to some sneaky techniques to 'teleport' the train and everyone in it through a dark void in the tunnel in order to not have to render some portions of it (see below).
So, with the tunnel almost done in XSI, I'll port it all into hammer as static models and render the outside around them as nodraw boxes so that vis can cut them up accordingly and bask in the rays of an all-orthogonal tunnel.
I must admit, I'm not pro at XSI (or any modeling package for that matter) and it has taken me a great deal to get where I am. I used to do a little modeling back a couple of years ago, so I'm having to re-learn all the controls and schisms involved with trying to get what I want. So, needless to say, I'm re-acquainting myself and am chugging along faster with it as I go.
Ok, here's one final diagram to explain how the track will loop through the level.
-Ok, here we see stations A-C. The train will move from A to B to C and then back to B then back to A. The train will go back and forth through 3 stations rather than make an actual loop, so the middle station will see the most action. In this diagram, you can also see where exactly the train teleports in order to jump from one track to another. The train will teleport in both directions. Once when it is going from A to B and a second time when it is traveling from B to A.
In the long portion of the track, I decided not to teleport it again, as seeing, I'm sure some folks would want some train action. That is to say, the train would speed up along this portion of the track so that it would not take soo long to travel. If players wanted time to cool down or time to plan, they could sit it out in the train during this part. There may be some server issues with this, but that will have to wait until testing. I think reaper has some experience with tracktrains in hl2dm, so maybe he could shed some light on the situation.
There will be one car for the train itself as opposed to two. Two cars would be too much for the server to calculate especially if they are 'anchored' to one another and pivot as they go around corners. I'll admit that it would be cool to jump from one moving car to another, but it would probably too much for the server to render simultaneously, since func_tracktrains are server side.
-Well, there you have it; the latest update on the map. I'd like to have the tunnel models done by the end of the week, if not sooner. If I can get it done in time!
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Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by RedWood on Mon May 25th at 10:22pm 2009
Posted by RedWood on Mon May 25th at 10:22pm 2009
Wow, you have put a lot of work into this. Keep up the good work.
Reality has become a commodity.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by haymaker on Mon May 25th at 10:53pm 2009
Posted by haymaker on Mon May 25th at 10:53pm 2009
Yeah looks great Riven! Awesome update.
I'm curious how you dealt with the turning radius problem, those corners look hella smaller than the ones I needed to make the train not collide with the wall. I guess if they're static props they could be made nonsolid? or did you come up with another solution?
And I'm inferring that you plan to have lighting throughout the tunnels somewhat?
I'm curious how you dealt with the turning radius problem, those corners look hella smaller than the ones I needed to make the train not collide with the wall. I guess if they're static props they could be made nonsolid? or did you come up with another solution?
And I'm inferring that you plan to have lighting throughout the tunnels somewhat?
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Le Chief on Mon May 25th at 11:39pm 2009
Posted by Le Chief on Mon May 25th at 11:39pm 2009
Riven, really great stuff man.
Why do we need so much track for? I mean, this doesn't have to be exactly like a conventional train does it? We can stylize it up a little. Instead of having a large and very bulky curve couldn't we use turn tables instead? I think it would be more suitable than having large bulky track sections, although it would be sweet riding through them at full speed!
I don't think teleporting is such a good idea. It's always a little sad for me when I see shortcuts in games and the notion of having the train teleport feels like a shortcut to me. I think that with the use of turn tables, we could build much shorter sections of linear, 90 degree track (which is much easier than curves) and if we simply optimize the speed of the train so that it travels at a comfortable speed for a multiplayer game, players would enjoy or wouldn't be pissed off by a trip in the train even though they want to get to the next station and get some frags asap.
I gotta say though, looking at the images of the rail system, it really sweet so I don't know but I think that using turn tables with shorter sections of track would eliminate alot of problems.
Actually, the amount of server side processing required for this would be very minimal and in fact I should hope that it would take slightly less server side processing if the two trains where 'anchored' together, unless Valve didn't do their networking code correctly.
The thing that is most expensive on the server side is collision detection/physics. I mean, if everything was bolted to the ground and provided that the Steam servers are placed efficiently around the world (as they are) you could probably have a decent game on dial-up.
I mean, I don't know how the code in Half-Life 2 worked, but I would hope that for track trains, the server would update the location of the track train to the clients and the rest of the work would be done client side (and if the two trains weren't coupled then the server would have to update the clients on the locations of both trains sending twice as much data to the clients). If that's the case, it really is just a tiny amount of information being sent if you think about it. Adding more brushes to the track train shouldn't effect server side processing as hopefully collision detection between the train and the player is done client side.
That's why your downstream/upstream speeds (how much data you can send and receive) aren't nearly as important as your ping (how quickly you can send and receive data) for games. Anyway, I've gotten carried away again.. one final thing:
It's nice to see the metric system being used by the Americans
. I've started to notice that its being used increasingly in American games/movies/conversation. 
Quoting Riven
So I hammered out a train tunnel that would span over the map and connect associated areas together. Upon making many test compiles of it (including a 30 min. full lighting compile) The map simply couldn't handle the number of twists and angles of all the track pieces (the actual tunnels themselves, if not lined up to the grid was too much for the engine to bother rendering even when split up). So I swallowed the sour pill and realized that the tunnel geometry would just have to be modeled so that vis could have an easy job. There is literally about 1/2 a Kilometer of track that spans over the course of the map.
Why do we need so much track for? I mean, this doesn't have to be exactly like a conventional train does it? We can stylize it up a little. Instead of having a large and very bulky curve couldn't we use turn tables instead? I think it would be more suitable than having large bulky track sections, although it would be sweet riding through them at full speed!
Quoting Riven
The train will teleport in both directions.
I don't think teleporting is such a good idea. It's always a little sad for me when I see shortcuts in games and the notion of having the train teleport feels like a shortcut to me. I think that with the use of turn tables, we could build much shorter sections of linear, 90 degree track (which is much easier than curves) and if we simply optimize the speed of the train so that it travels at a comfortable speed for a multiplayer game, players would enjoy or wouldn't be pissed off by a trip in the train even though they want to get to the next station and get some frags asap.
I gotta say though, looking at the images of the rail system, it really sweet so I don't know but I think that using turn tables with shorter sections of track would eliminate alot of problems.
Quoting Riven
There will be one car for the train itself as opposed to two. Two cars would be too much for the server to calculate especially if they are 'anchored' to one another and pivot as they go around corners. I'll admit that it would be cool to jump from one moving car to another, but it would probably too much for the server to render simultaneously, since func_tracktrains are server side.
Actually, the amount of server side processing required for this would be very minimal and in fact I should hope that it would take slightly less server side processing if the two trains where 'anchored' together, unless Valve didn't do their networking code correctly.
The thing that is most expensive on the server side is collision detection/physics. I mean, if everything was bolted to the ground and provided that the Steam servers are placed efficiently around the world (as they are) you could probably have a decent game on dial-up.
I mean, I don't know how the code in Half-Life 2 worked, but I would hope that for track trains, the server would update the location of the track train to the clients and the rest of the work would be done client side (and if the two trains weren't coupled then the server would have to update the clients on the locations of both trains sending twice as much data to the clients). If that's the case, it really is just a tiny amount of information being sent if you think about it. Adding more brushes to the track train shouldn't effect server side processing as hopefully collision detection between the train and the player is done client side.
That's why your downstream/upstream speeds (how much data you can send and receive) aren't nearly as important as your ping (how quickly you can send and receive data) for games. Anyway, I've gotten carried away again.. one final thing:
Quoting Riven
There is literally about 1/2 a Kilometer of track
It's nice to see the metric system being used by the Americans
. I've started to notice that its being used increasingly in American games/movies/conversation.
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Tue May 26th at 1:39am 2009
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Posted by Riven on Tue May 26th at 1:39am 2009
Wall 'O Text Ahead!! -Take detour here---> + (see below)
-Yes, the turning radius for the preliminary train I have built fits perfectly within the walls and angles of the tunnels I designed. I tested it by copy/pasting iterations of the train in Hammer (kinda like images taken of a moving object and it's ghost path) and figured out a rough size with very small leeway. 'Just enough' was the idea and it should fit quite nicely. The In-XSI shot I have posted in my last post reflects an area that will be pitch-black as the train turns the corner. THAT angle is actually too sharp, but that was done on purpose, so that players peering down the hall would see a sudden cut of view from looking down the tunnel. The train will not actually pass all the way through that angle. That angle will be part of the 'teleport zone' Now, the very large circle you see in the last image is train-ready. that reflects the smooth curve needed to direct the train through a 180.
-I understand what you mean too. I don't like shortcuts either, but what I describe as teleporting, the player would simply describe as a longer section of pitch-blackness. That is, the player won't know they just teleported. It will all be hidden. So, had I not told you, you may not have known. (other than by looking at the diagram yourself, which the player will never see).
-Turntables eh? I'll be honest with ya, those NEVER crossed my mind -at all. Sounds like a good idea. If we did implement them though, we'd be looking at more than just one for sure. -Sure that would mean more pieces of straight track (and therefore less modeling) but also more starting and stopping (if you wanted to detail each of the turntable zones.) If I tried to accomplish it with just one turntable, you can bet there would be more track than there is now (and therefore more curves). It's a good idea in principle and I'm willing to try making a test section for it or going all out on it and design a special looking one (or something like that) if it's something people want. Like I said, I never thought about it, but it is certainly valid. I'm not totally crazy about it TBH, as it means a lot of work in a different direction. I'm pretty sure it will be more work to realize some turntables than what we're dealing with here. It may not seem like it to you, but the way I am imagining it fitting into the map makes me a little depressed Simply because it's not just horizontal ways, but the track also changes elevation as it goes along. If we did choose to do it, there would be about 3 turntables at least in order to make it work efficiently. And yes, those would make for shorter amounts of track, but would it be less enjoyable? -I suppose it breaks down to what's more fun I guess.
-I'm glad you noticed! -I don't know about it being reflective of american standards changing in general, but it certainly is a personal goal of mine. I can tell you as an architecture student and having a father who's a civil engineer, we're hard-pressed into the imperial system. We're not required in the least to bother designing anything in metric. I only have an imperial architects scale and not a metric one. But I feel the internet has standards, and those standards are whatever the world's majority is, so when I approach the internet, I respect the metric system. But if you were to visit me here in the usa, I would describe things to you in feet, inches, and miles. -I highly doubt the US will be switching anytime soon, even though I would prefer the metric system (don't tell my dad!).
+ Thanks for the support guys! I want to see this thing get done -BADLY!
Quoting haymaker
I'm curious how you dealt with the turning radius problem, those corners look hella smaller than the ones I needed to make the train not collide with the wall. I guess if they're static props they could be made nonsolid? or did you come up with another solution?
-Yes, the turning radius for the preliminary train I have built fits perfectly within the walls and angles of the tunnels I designed. I tested it by copy/pasting iterations of the train in Hammer (kinda like images taken of a moving object and it's ghost path) and figured out a rough size with very small leeway. 'Just enough' was the idea and it should fit quite nicely. The In-XSI shot I have posted in my last post reflects an area that will be pitch-black as the train turns the corner. THAT angle is actually too sharp, but that was done on purpose, so that players peering down the hall would see a sudden cut of view from looking down the tunnel. The train will not actually pass all the way through that angle. That angle will be part of the 'teleport zone' Now, the very large circle you see in the last image is train-ready. that reflects the smooth curve needed to direct the train through a 180.
Quoting haymaker
And I'm inferring that you plan to have lighting throughout the tunnels somewhat?
Yes, and very minimally at that (It's also why the resolution on the tunnel model is so low; players will be speeding through them at 80Km/hr and it will be partially black. The lighting will be spotted along the way). And because the train itself will be built of brushes, I envision a lightmap baked into the train interior elsewhere (just one light that can be turned on and off). So as the train travels from spot-light to spot-light, there can actually be trigger volumes that the train passes through that would turn on and off the lightmaps within the car to simulate the lighting from the tunnel passing by. In the end I imagine it looking like a slow strobe light effect that would pick up as the train moved faster (also cued by higher-pitched tram sounds) making for a dramatic fighting environment, or just fun to watch. Quoting aaron_da_killa
I don't think teleporting is such a good idea. It's always a little sad for me when I see shortcuts in games and the notion of having the train teleport feels like a shortcut to me.
-I understand what you mean too. I don't like shortcuts either, but what I describe as teleporting, the player would simply describe as a longer section of pitch-blackness. That is, the player won't know they just teleported. It will all be hidden. So, had I not told you, you may not have known. (other than by looking at the diagram yourself, which the player will never see).
-Turntables eh? I'll be honest with ya, those NEVER crossed my mind -at all. Sounds like a good idea. If we did implement them though, we'd be looking at more than just one for sure. -Sure that would mean more pieces of straight track (and therefore less modeling) but also more starting and stopping (if you wanted to detail each of the turntable zones.) If I tried to accomplish it with just one turntable, you can bet there would be more track than there is now (and therefore more curves). It's a good idea in principle and I'm willing to try making a test section for it or going all out on it and design a special looking one (or something like that) if it's something people want. Like I said, I never thought about it, but it is certainly valid. I'm not totally crazy about it TBH, as it means a lot of work in a different direction. I'm pretty sure it will be more work to realize some turntables than what we're dealing with here. It may not seem like it to you, but the way I am imagining it fitting into the map makes me a little depressed
Simply because it's not just horizontal ways, but the track also changes elevation as it goes along. If we did choose to do it, there would be about 3 turntables at least in order to make it work efficiently. And yes, those would make for shorter amounts of track, but would it be less enjoyable? -I suppose it breaks down to what's more fun I guess.Quoting aaron_da_killa
It's nice to see the metric system being used by the Americans
-I'm glad you noticed! -I don't know about it being reflective of american standards changing in general, but it certainly is a personal goal of mine. I can tell you as an architecture student and having a father who's a civil engineer, we're hard-pressed into the imperial system. We're not required in the least to bother designing anything in metric. I only have an imperial architects scale and not a metric one. But I feel the internet has standards, and those standards are whatever the world's majority is, so when I approach the internet, I respect the metric system. But if you were to visit me here in the usa, I would describe things to you in feet, inches, and miles. -I highly doubt the US will be switching anytime soon, even though I would prefer the metric system (don't tell my dad!).
+ Thanks for the support guys! I want to see this thing get done -BADLY!
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Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by haymaker on Tue May 26th at 2:09am 2009
Posted by haymaker on Tue May 26th at 2:09am 2009
hah metric + construction = silliness I agree, all the plans I get for residential are in Imperial while all commercial are in metric. That said I'm quite comfortable with "kilometers" as Ive walked quite a few on many a pitch black stranded night.
Back to the train thing, originally you may have noticed that I put a few triggers in the mock-up tunnels way back when, those triggers were set to change the rendercolor value of the train, as it's func_brush I think. ( can't remember ) I thought it worked quite well for a fake job on the lighting, going from zone to zone it went from nearly 0 0 0 to 255 255 255 in the station, and shades in between. Other flashes of colour would be simple too. It's your call but I think that may be a less labour-intensive way to go.
I dunno about having 2 trains daisy-chained, seems kinda pointless, the amount of traffic they're gonna see. Plus the mini station I built only has romm for one as well. Add that to the original testing I did, where I sat up top of my first station and watched them come and go: no trains, 100+fps; 1 train, 55-60; 2 trains at once, 30-45. Goes downhill FAST.
(There is also the famous hl2dm bug where a func_tracktrain will kill players on contact, on a 100 tic server)
Back to the train thing, originally you may have noticed that I put a few triggers in the mock-up tunnels way back when, those triggers were set to change the rendercolor value of the train, as it's func_brush I think. ( can't remember ) I thought it worked quite well for a fake job on the lighting, going from zone to zone it went from nearly 0 0 0 to 255 255 255 in the station, and shades in between. Other flashes of colour would be simple too. It's your call but I think that may be a less labour-intensive way to go.
I dunno about having 2 trains daisy-chained, seems kinda pointless, the amount of traffic they're gonna see. Plus the mini station I built only has romm for one as well. Add that to the original testing I did, where I sat up top of my first station and watched them come and go: no trains, 100+fps; 1 train, 55-60; 2 trains at once, 30-45. Goes downhill FAST.
(There is also the famous hl2dm bug where a func_tracktrain will kill players on contact, on a 100 tic server)
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Tue May 26th at 7:55pm 2009
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Posted by Riven on Tue May 26th at 7:55pm 2009
I've already chatted with you about this over Steam, but I'll reiterate here for discussion purposes.
I never thought about using rendercolor value for that effect instead, When I start work on the train, I'll definitely look into that!
-Ah, yes, that is another good reason: your middle station is only big enough for one car at-a-time anyway, and 100-tic servers are known to have a bone to pick with func_tracktrain and func_door (and any other moving entity).
-No telling how good or bad the fps might be! -Hopefully this will all work out (even if I have to optimize like crazy!)
I never thought about using rendercolor value for that effect instead, When I start work on the train, I'll definitely look into that!
-Ah, yes, that is another good reason: your middle station is only big enough for one car at-a-time anyway, and 100-tic servers are known to have a bone to pick with func_tracktrain and func_door (and any other moving entity).
-No telling how good or bad the fps might be! -Hopefully this will all work out (even if I have to optimize like crazy!)
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Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by haymaker on Tue May 26th at 10:14pm 2009
Posted by haymaker on Tue May 26th at 10:14pm 2009
If you do do a trial run on the rendercolor, i remembered how i fixed the logic:
Lets say this is a normal path system:
....1.....2.....3....
Now add in extra path_tracks very close to those, like 32 units or less:
....x1.1....x2.2.....x3.3....x4
So the x path will have the same values as the one that it is farthest away from it.
Train arrives at x1 with a value of 100 100 100 say, x1 keeps it at that, 1 changes it to 128 128 128, x2 keeps it at that, 2 = 200 200 200, x3 keeps it at that, 3 = 255 255 255, x4 is the turnaround with same value.
im pretty sure thats how I approached it anyway
Lets say this is a normal path system:
....1.....2.....3....
Now add in extra path_tracks very close to those, like 32 units or less:
....x1.1....x2.2.....x3.3....x4
So the x path will have the same values as the one that it is farthest away from it.
Train arrives at x1 with a value of 100 100 100 say, x1 keeps it at that, 1 changes it to 128 128 128, x2 keeps it at that, 2 = 200 200 200, x3 keeps it at that, 3 = 255 255 255, x4 is the turnaround with same value.
im pretty sure thats how I approached it anyway
Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Wed May 27th at 6:52am 2009
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Posted by Riven on Wed May 27th at 6:52am 2009
Ah, Ok, It took me a minute to understand what you were talking about, but now I get it. That's the way you have the path tracks set-up to quickly fade-in and out the rendercolor effect of the lights passing by. -that would mean doubling up or even tripling up each path track that existed in the tunnel. That would be A LOT. I'll do some tests though.
Here's one part of the tunnel already made into a model that should look almost seamless as you zoom by it in the train:
And another shot of it from the model portion looking toward the brush portion:
It's moving along quite nicely now. But I still have the rest of the track left which is 5 times longer, so that may take a little bit longer. -Off to work on it now!
Here's one part of the tunnel already made into a model that should look almost seamless as you zoom by it in the train:
And another shot of it from the model portion looking toward the brush portion:
It's moving along quite nicely now. But I still have the rest of the track left which is 5 times longer, so that may take a little bit longer. -Off to work on it now!
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Re: Compilation Map 2008
Posted by Riven on Fri May 29th at 3:41am 2009
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Posted by Riven on Fri May 29th at 3:41am 2009
[UPDATE]: Just when everything was going so smoothly, the outlets here decide to fry, and with it my desktop as well. Don't worry, nothing was lost; all the content for the map and all it's iterations are backed-up, so no need to worry about having lost it. I will simply be out of commission for a little bit (say maybe two weeks). Yes, the desktop was hooked up to a surge proctector (with a battery backup as well), but that had nothing to do with the problem. It was something out of my control that will get resolved soon. I'm sorry this happened, I'll be back on the case soon! 
-Riven
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