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[map] DM_kowloon
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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by popcornjake on Fri May 29th at 7:23pm 2009

Posted by popcornjake on Wed May 27th 2009 at 6:18am

This is a a discussion topic for the map "DM_kowloon" by popcornjake which can be found here

Map description:

NOTE: Waiting for other thread to be merged with this one (i think) thanks for that Riven. [UPDATE: Topic Merged]

This is the first map I've released and I've been working on it for a good few months now, and at this stage I think it's fair to say I reached a 99% complete beta stage (which I never actually envisioned happening). It's a medium/large map with a somewhat symmetrical layout.

The name doesn't actually have anything to do with Kowloon, or the walled city of kowloon, the map started out as a map on the rooftops of that city but it eventually changed to what it is now, though the name stayed the same.

It may be too dark, too cramped, too open in some parts and that is why I'm posting it here, to get your feedback. So if you do download it and run through it a bit, thus making me incredibly happy, please smash it with critique so I try get it a bit better.

On another note the optimisation is a bit eh. To put in perspective, it doesn't run close to "stock" HL2DM maps, but runs faster than insurgency maps on my rig.

I don't really have any clue as to how to organise some sort of a play test session so if somebody could pretty please push me in the right direction i would be very grateful.

Screenshots are from an slightly older build, since then windows have been opened up to further allow free movement and other tweaks to the lighting, cubemaps and all the tedious things have been added.

I thought I was going to be able to add more screenshots to the map's profile after it was updated, guess I was wrong so here they are. I sure suck at teh internetz.

DOWNLOAD HERE: http://files.filefront.com/dm+kowloon+b2rar/;13809368;/fileinfo.html











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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Riven on Fri May 29th at 7:26pm 2009

Posted by Riven on Wed May 27th at 8:16am 2009

Wow, very beautiful looking map! You should totally give this map a profile so that it shows up on the front page. Doing that, it will automatically start your own thread in the 'Maps' forum for the map. If you do that, I'll automatically copy all of the text and pictures from this post into that post so that you don't loose anything.

-To add a map to our database, simply click on your 'control panel' at the top, select the 'maps' tab then click the 'add map' button. It'll bring you to a page where you can upload all the screenshots you've posted here, a description for it, and you can even upload the map itself to our webserver so that others can download it straight from the Pit. Even maps that are under construction are welcome, as you can always update their profiles with updated content. Once you do that, I'm sure this map will get some front page coverage!

-I'll review it when I can later.


Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by popcornjake on Fri May 29th at 7:27pm 2009

Posted by popcornjake on Wed May 27th at 3:52pm 2009

Quoting Riven
Wow, very beautiful looking map! You should totally give this map a profile so that it shows up on the front page. Doing that, it will automatically start your own thread in the 'Maps' forum for the map. If you do that, I'll automatically copy all of the text and pictures from this post into that post so that you don't loose anything.

-To add a map to our database, simply click on your 'control panel' at the top, select the 'maps' tab then click the 'add map' button. It'll bring you to a page where you can upload all the screenshots you've posted here, a description for it, and you can even upload the map itself to our webserver so that others can download it straight from the Pit. Even maps that are under construction are welcome, as you can always update their profiles with updated content. Once you do that, I'm sure this map will get some front page coverage!

-I'll review it when I can later.


Yes I've been trying to get it up onto the database but whenever i click submit all i get is a blank page with the letter 1 at the top left hand corner. With every try after that the number eventually works it's way to 2 then 3 and so on. If you could help me out with that I'd be very grateful.

Thanks for the reply!



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Riven on Fri May 29th at 7:28pm 2009

Posted by Riven on Wed May 27th at 4:31pm 2009

Ok, I've alerted our web-designer about it, and either he, or I will let you know if or when it get's fixed, and subsequently when you can try again...

I'm glad you brought it up, because we haven't seen any new maps added to our database in the last couple of weeks, so maybe this is the reason... We normally get at least one new map a week. So, your post is very important!

Thanks again!


Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by ffjakebrake on Fri May 29th at 7:29pm 2009

Posted by ffjakebrake on Wed May 27th at 9:26pm 2009

Wow! Very nice looking!! I'll download this tomorrow and playtest it a bit! It looks to be very sharp in detail with nice lighting! smiley




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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Juim on Fri May 29th at 7:29pm 2009

Posted by Juim on Thu May 28th at 7:26am 2009

OK, I've had a run around this version and the improvements are good. Among the many issues you have to deal with now, I would say the biggest is performance. I experience up to 80% frame loss in the wider views. Optimizing has always been the bein of my existence, becaue I (Like just about any other mapper out there) want to cram as much eye candy and goodness as I can into a map. On almost every map I've ever made, I've wound up making huge changes in concept and layout in the name of performance. I tried to tell another mapper once. There are basically two kinds of maps. The ones that get server play, and the ones that don't. Slow performance will almost surely kill a maps popularity among other factors.
Issue #2:
I am getting hundreds of this message in the console as I run around the map:

R_DrawDecalsAll: overflowing m_aBatches. Reduce # of decals in the scene.

I don't know the technical reason for this(Other than there's just too many decals in the map???), but I do know the Source engine is delicate and lends itself to crashes often. Best to deal with this before final release.

Issue#3: The HDR. I turned off bloom all together and once again, IMO, the map stands up in LDR with flying colors. It's crisper,cleaner,and faster. The solar flare, and texture reflections and brightness levels in some places are just distracting, as well as resource hogs.

Issue 4#: The windows and balconies. You left a bunch of small stubs where the mullions used to be, and there are a few floating brushes around a couple of them. Plus, there are still a couple of dead end balconies on the (North?) side of the map.Needs some treats.
I'll look at the map[ some more this weekend, and playtest it with my FF mates. I'll post any further thoughts then.

Hook up with some of the more experienced mappers,like just about anybody here on this site(who maps), and they will be a wealth of information on optimizing. Don't be in a hurry to push the map out!. This one could be awesome!. Nice work.


Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Le Chief on Fri May 29th at 7:30pm 2009

Posted by aaron_da_killa on Fri May 29th at 12:06am 2009

Looks good, I'll give it a go this weekend and let you know what I think. I think I've seen one of those screenshots over at Interlopers, am I right? smiley


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by larchy on Fri May 29th at 7:31pm 2009

Posted by larchy on Fri May 29th at 7:54am 2009

Er, you should be able to on the edit map page? smiley



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by larchy on Fri May 29th at 7:36pm 2009

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiven smiley





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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Riven on Fri May 29th at 7:38pm 2009

Ah, thanks for that! -You da MAN! smiley I'll stay more aware next time! smiley

If you're looking for more map reviews please skip this spoiler text...

Show spoiler


Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by popcornjake on Sat May 30th at 12:26am 2009

OK firstly I think I should apologize for the work I've caused you smiley but thank you for helping me out with everything.

I updated the map to beta 3 with improvements to the optimisation which you can get here: http://files.filefront.com/dm+kowloon+b3rar/;13825063;/fileinfo.html or from the map profile page, so if you are awesome enough to test it out pretty please snatch up that version.

Juim I did read your original post and along with your post on interlopers it helped a lot so I thought I'd break my bad habit of not replying to things and respond to your four points:

Issue 1: I suck at optimising but beta 3 runs a little faster, I'm going to continue working on that of course, if anybody could help me out with any pointers on to chuck in some hint brushes I will love you forever

Issue 2: I noticed that too, I only really got it when I was flying around with noclip, vis occlusion culling/not rendering stuff/ I don't know what to call it seems to help that though.

Issue 3: I know you guys dislike your hdr but I'm a noob eye candy whore so I can't help but make my maps support it, I did up the ambient lighting brightness for you guys though smiley

Issue 4: I left the stubs on the windows to simulate the windows being "blown out" seeing as that building has a 3 great big holes blown into it, I didn't want to leave those windows as bare rectangle cause then it would look silly for the upper story to have bullions and i didn't want to lose detail. Also I opened up some balconies in beta 3 but they are easily crouch jumped over.

So yeah thanks a lot for the feedback and sorry for all and any confusion I've caused. And yes I was managed to get more screenshots up onto the map, I'm going to try be a bit more smooth next time a release a map.

Enjoy the map!

/wall of text







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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by haymaker on Sat May 30th at 6:41pm 2009

Ive had a peek at b3. Some thoughts:

- I really like the flow potential here. Could be a fast-playing map.


^ Note my frames. Far too low. Make sure the world geometry for the building is as simple as possible, could even make the top 2 stories func_detail. A map-wide horizontal hint at the top of 1st floor line will come in handy.


^ This room is far too dark. Love the lightmapping, but a bright light_spot shining towards the camera here from about 16-20 feet up will kill the darkness while keeping your shadow work. These shots are with my brightness at about 90% slider


^ ( I cant even see from the thumb what this is ) These props are definite candidates for deletion, or very aggressive propfading at least. Mkae them non-solid too, save a tiny chunk of overhead there plus it will help movement a lot. I hate getting stuck on that shit.


^ Same thing. Especially that twisted one in there.


^ Whats going on in that glass, looks like a vis error. Also recommend removing all func_breakable glass to save overhead.


^ Again far too dark. Get creative with some electric lighting or light bleeding from windows, anything.


^ Can save some triangles, replace this with a safety glass door and delete the stairs. I like it but it's engine-visible from too far away.


^ Make these rails non-solid, compile yr vrad with -staticproplighting. Don't like the impeded movement through here.

Please don't think Im coming off harshly here, i really do like this, like I said it has the potential to be a really fast, fun map. The two biggest issues are the lighting and performance.

I think your LOD is commendable but in my experience this is better off for a single-player thing or left as a set-piece, HL2DM is lot more processor-hungry than it appears, player models will eat up another 50-60% here. The map will get played more if you go apeshit on the optimising, for example be a lot more aggressive on the propfades/deletion, including throwables ( eg cardboard boxes ), players will never notice. A big part of the problem is that a lot of detail is out in the open, if you can find ways to tuck your goodies into little corners so they can be hidden, itll make for a more efficient map.

Keep at this!







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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Juim on Sun May 31st at 1:15am 2009

Haynaker is on to something here. I have a few similar comments, w/pics. Some are repetetive versions of his comments, so bare with me here.
pic #1:

Light this area. Artificial light sources would look awesome, and brighten up the area.

Pic #2:

Here's the 2 balconies I keep mentioning. They need goodies.

Pic #3:

See the floating brushes in the window?

Pic #4:

As Haymaker said, way too dark, Artificial light sources would ewnhance this area soooo much.(PS, too many radiators there for my tastes).

Pic #5:

I want to be able to get in and out of this little grass area(Hint, so there should be some kind of treat in there as well.)

Pic #6:

Same here!.(Just IMO though)

Pic #7:

Alittle redundancy here, light it!, light it!, light it!. He-he-he.

So this version (B3) is the best by far. You obviously take notes and consider them. I like it the most so far, which means it's improving. As for the technical optimizing stuff, take Haymakers word for what he says.



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Le Chief on Sun May 31st at 2:01am 2009

Great smiley

I just lost my post I typed up on this map because of some error "I must wait one second before making another submisson"! What the hell? Riven, Larchy?

smiley


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by popcornjake on Sun May 31st at 12:07pm 2009

Firstly I want to thank you guys for all your criticism, helps me sooo very much when it comes to updating the map as i take all the advice to heart.

I integrated almost all the suggestions, including both the interior and exterior artificial lighting, tweaking the balconies and I also tweaked the light_environment a to be a bit brighter too.

To be honest I'd never properly optimized a map until now so I hadn't found out about occluders until today and i must say they are brilliant, I used them in conjunction with more hint brushes all over the map with my fps increasing up to 30 fps in some areas.

I tempted to call this one finished but I'll wait and see what you crit you guys have for it smiley

You can get b4 on the map profile page or here: http://files.filefront.com/dm+kowloon+b4rar/;13831796;/fileinfo.html

Thank you for all the help so far, enjoy the map!

Oh and I almost forgot, in regards to the map's place in the first page spotlight: thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by haymaker on Sun May 31st at 10:58pm 2009

You are welcome popcornjake, trying to maintain other's interest in this game helps keep it alive longer! Plus I like seeing the level of expertise you've attained, for this game as well.

Vast improvement in the lighting scheme. Just a few more tweaks here and there in that dept I'd say.

Again I'm going to nag you about propfades and collisions ( I noticed you did not specify a startfade distance, which causes the engine to do just that much extra work fading over a long distance. Ive gotten in the habit of making the startfade just a few units from the end, unless it becomes really obvious that way ). Some candidates I found very quickly:




There are more I'm sure. One thing easy to cheat on is wherever there's a light sprite, get more aggressive with the fade because the sprite flare is more distracting anyway.

More seriously, make sure you double-check all clips, there are ways of getting around in this game that might surprise you:


^Took very little effort to get there.

One thing that is causing frame loss at ground level is the extended sightlines. It's a big geometry change but if you're serious about cranking that up, here's one solution:





Note this only works with a horizontal hint at the top of the wall, map_wide. Player and engine will lose sight of the railway and everything beyond. Above the hint line performance will stay the same. There does not even need to be a ceiling on the new walls ( I screwed up the artwork in the second shot, it doesnt amtter as long as the vertical hint works out to terminate at a 45 deg angle ).

It's just an idea, and one that has big effect on the aesthetics, but it will definitely improve performance, and possibly gameplay too, as it traps the rpg a little better. Don't think I'm insisting you do it smiley




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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by Le Chief on Mon Jun 1st at 7:47am 2009

Here's a summary of the points I had:

- Seemingly solid map, nice visual style, quality is consistent throughout level, seemingly good layout/design - fit for multiplayer.

- Big poo poo for you for not having sufficient ambient sound, would be much better with good ambient sound, get to it!

- A bit too blue for me, would look better if there was more pure white, maybe difficult considering fog and light environment colour, perhaps white artificial light sources are in order and need to specify a minimum fog distance like 300/400/500 units so fog does not drown out the white light.

- Some areas are possibly a little too dark, consider lighting these areas some more.

- A 3D Skybox with a lower than default ratio (maybe 1:4, normal geometry, 3d skybox geometry) with a mix of subtle industrial and residential constructs to instill/reinforce a feel of dystopia and create a sense of depth in the space.

I think that was all of my points. smiley


Aaron's Stuff



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by popcornjake on Tue Jun 2nd at 4:20am 2009

Beta 5 is go with little improvements to the lighting (again), tweaks to prop fades and hint brushes and cubemaps and clips and all other seemingly menial things.

I also added a 3d skybox as aaron_da_killa suggested, not sure how I feel about it though:






This might be the last version for a week or so until my exams are over but in saying that I'll most likely find the time to work on it anyway.

Thank you yet again for the criticism, without it I wouldn't be able to make improvements.

Oh and in response to the request for more white light, I don't really want to do that, white lights simply look bad in source IMO and I built this map with blue lighting and what not in mind (though at first it started out with green lighting)





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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by popcornjake on Sun Jun 7th at 2:03am 2009

Thought I would make a video for anybody checking the map out here, seeing as I couldn't really be bothered taking any screenshots to replace the old ones.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcL2siWI4hI



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 Re: [map] DM_kowloon
Posted by reaper47 on Tue Jun 9th at 10:59pm 2009

Totally missed this splendid map. Your first release you say? Damn.

I love the gritty look. If you keep the standard texture palette, keep the classic "HL look" as well (like you did). Nice lighting, also. A bit blue, though.

Layout seems simple but well connected. Slightly "boxed in" with an attractive center enclosed by a circular surrounding (dm_overlook style). That doesn't always work and isn't very exciting, but in your case, it's OK. I especially like each of the individual buildings with their little details that sets them apart. Some of the outer areas (around the map border) are semi-dead-ends. Feel free to cut off some outer bits to concentrate the flow more to the center. Some trimming would be a good idea IMO. Some parts are a little redundant.

You're still way too dark. As a rule of thumb, look at any 128x128 sized patch (especially around corners or long walls) and if it can be described as "in the shadow" (not ever dark, just shady in general) - add a light! Don't be afraid to "over-light" your map. It is impossible. Look at the screenshots. You might think they look darker in browser than in-game, but don't fall for that trap. Nobody plays dark maps, always remember that (I had to learn it the hard way).




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