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Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by scary_jeff on Sat Jun 5th at 2:31pm 2004

Without downloading it, it looks like a huge improvement interesting-ness and textures wise. The pipes in the second shot look superb.



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sun Jun 6th at 10:58am 2004

i'd forgotten just how big this map was, the changes seem to have paid off as its a lot easier to get around than the old version.



1 - theres a clipping problem on those stairs

2 - barrels are the only furniture in the cellar, could do with something else to add variation.

3 - nice lighting pools.

Suggestion - put some lit Exit signs above the doorway and stairs to make them easier to pick out.



1 - door origin brush is borked

2 - too dark around the truck

3 - too dark in that tunnel




1 - too narrow between the wall/vat

2 - platform breaks up the flow, removing the bit next to the wall should improve it.

Hmmm, dunno if that room would be better if it only had one vat in it so that it was opened up a lot more.

Like the vats and the way the presses on the floor above lead into them.




1 - would be better if there was a way up into that room from the outside, maybe lower the room height or take the ground up to the edge.

2 - rock edges need some work to make it easier to get up

3 - can get stuck on that bench and bin, they'll prolly work better if moved away from the rocks.

4 - clip brushes around those small trees needs thinning down

5 - too dark inside that building.

6 - some gimps stolen part of the building

7 - this sections a bit out of the way, put a few items up there to give players an incentive to go there.




1 - empty road needs some vehicles or other stuff on it.

2 - very dark tunnel and the arch needs smoothing out.

3 - needs something to break that wall up, the roof edge needs putting in.

4 - inside of that shop is very small, maybe too difficult to nav

5 - bedroom is too dark.

6 - theres a very small building at lower level at the far end which is empty, don't think its needed as this area is pretty big and already has quite a few buildings.




1 - invisible edge generated where that red line is.

2 - very long roof line needs breaking up.

3 - seems a shame you can't get up those rocks and into that room, could also use the rocks to get onto the garage roof.

4 - could do with a few items up there.


Not 100% sure about the light levels in the outdoor areas and cellar, they're maybe a bit too dark. Theres quite a few sounds in there but could do with some more - water dripping in the cellar, vat noises etc.

Even with all that stuff its still a big improvevement over the last version



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Jun 6th at 11:30am 2004

damn beerman , you may have just set a whole new standard for critiques..

very nicely done..

/me bows

[addsig]



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sun Jun 6th at 11:36am 2004

Cheers !!!



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Jun 6th at 11:38am 2004

? posted by beer hunter
Cheers !!!

you betcha bud.. that comment doesn't come easily.. we have many high quality critiquers around here.. many of whom i envy for their eye.

/me is humbled..

[addsig]



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by Gollum on Sun Jun 6th at 12:11pm 2004

I agree. Outstanding clarity and detail



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Sun Jun 6th at 1:18pm 2004

Good work both of you. I'll have a run through the next version.




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 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sun Jun 6th at 1:45pm 2004

Thx, tried to make it as concise and helpful as possible



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 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sun Jun 6th at 1:47pm 2004

oops ! sorry, double post

/edit - stupid me hit the quote button doh ! and then it double posted the net seems to have it in for me today.



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Jun 6th at 1:48pm 2004

uhh, any particular reason to quote an entire post beerman? your own post? [addsig]



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sun Jun 6th at 1:56pm 2004

yup, my stupidity was the reason



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by fishy on Sun Jun 6th at 2:53pm 2004

thanks for taking the time Beer. you picked up on most of my 'to do' list. i'll go through some of your points.
pic 1. the clipping problem happened when i hid the clipbrush and changed the brushwork of the stairs. but even so, there still wasn't enough headroom to get up the top half without crouching. it's already fixed. the extra furniture is under construction.

pic2.
i moved the door, but it must hve been ungrouped at the time, and the origin stayed where it was. sorted. apart from the light level, there's a few things about the tunnel/truck area that need worked on. it's on my list.

pic 3. i'm thinking more along the lines of making this room less open. the platform that runs along the wall will carry more pipes, and i want some more container type things too.

pic 4. the big wall, just out of sight to the left of the picture, has always looked wrong. when i'm happy with it, there will be a way into the window. there's no clip brush around the tree. they're cyclers. all the models are, and all have the same hit box. i'll need to look for that fix that stops hammer from crashing when i try to make them cycler_sprites.

pic 5. i thought about a vehicle, but its only a road between two buildings, so it might look daft. r's are a main factor here too. i've thought about re-working the entire insides of that building. i probably wont, completely, but.... the little building down in the corner, i think i'll seal it up with shutters.

pic 6. the invisible edge is the hitbox of the cycler again. i have a plan for the roofline ,) . you cant get up the rocks to the room? i must by leet. item placement is a bit of a mystery to me. definately something i'd need more feedback on as the map nears completion.

if the outdoor light levels seem too dark, then some of the other areas must be almost black. i tweaked the light_environment until it looked just right for me. if it's agreed to be too dark though, i could up it a little.

thanks again for taking the time, and for avoiding bits that are still obviously under construction.





Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sun Jun 6th at 5:51pm 2004

? quote:
you cant get up the rocks to the room? i must by leet. item placement is a bit of a mystery to me.


heh, i managed to gauss up onto most of the roofs but those tricky small jumps defeat me

Ditto about the items, i usually just space them out and put a few better weapons in out of the way places to make players go there.

? quote:
thanks again for taking the time, and for avoiding bits that are still obviously under construction.


no problem.



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by fishy on Thu Jul 29th at 4:40am 2004

three full moons later, and another incarnation arrives. without loading up the old map and having a runaround, i honestly dont know what all the changes are since the last time i submitted a version. various bits have come and gone, and i've sort of lost track of what they were.

link

i think this'll be my comp entry, though there's half a chance that i'll get the other map done in time now. some new (some not so) screens...........

it'll get a final compile in a couple of days, so if anyone sees anything that needs changing, fire away.....

[edit] .zip fixed

[/edit]





Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by Crackerjack on Thu Jul 29th at 12:46pm 2004

this map actually looks pretty cool, less screen shots 5 and 6 which are way to dark. Im interested to see how this turns out. I really like the stairs.. that looks real nice.

[addsig]



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Sat Jul 31st at 3:37am 2004

First of all 'walltopbush.mdl' was missing, so you should add that.

General Problems:

All the lighting is very bright and sterlie. Any sense of atmosphere is eliminated. Create a test map with all your texture lights in it and open up your lights.rad. Tone down any excessively bright lights and tweak away. It would be wise to make a back-up beforehand, but it's not really necessary. If you do this it will pay huge dividends. You'll get some real nice shadows and highlights to complement your architecture. Be sure not to leave any areas too dark though.

Another fairly large, but easily correctable problem of yours is your bad textures. Everyone knows the hl.wad is dated, but that's not what I'm talking about. Some are over strectched and others just look out of place. You also have some detailed textures alongside blurry ones.

Specific Problems:

1. The bars in the background need to be fixed.



2. There is an indentation in the wall that probably shouldn't be there. The floor is too thin to look realistic.



3. The noise when the doors close doesn't suit wooden doors at all.



4. Who stole all the furniture? Probably the same person who made the texture error!



5. A close up of the error! Included so the screenshot numbers correspond to the points.



6. That show kept me entertained for ages. As you can see, it's a a smidge too far forward.



7. This is the sterile lighting I was talking about, no real shadows.



8. This pile of dirt ends abrputly.



9. A bit thick don't you think?



10. TAKE ME TO ENTITY!



11. Not sure why I took this. Maybe it's the thin floor or the bad door texture.



12. Might as well make this glass transparent.



13. I don't know what's up with these lights at all. It should just be a func_wall.



14. Just a flat face above the huge door.



15. Put a little light in here to draw attention. This room is a cool detail.



16. Don't have this end at a point, give it some thickness.



17. Flimsy door here, just make the frame bigger too.



18. Not the best design here. A solid texture around this edge might be an improvement.



19. Just a small hitch in the grass here.



20. The clip brush over thses barrels extends too far out.



21. Change the water/slime to func_water to get rid of the brightness.



22. Another masked texture to be fixed.


This is a sweet wee map, and would score quite favourably if you address the problems. There's plenty of places to explore and windows to smash.





Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by fishy on Sat Jul 31st at 5:47am 2004

thanks A_S.

i really don't know what i can do about the lighting. i'll try what you say with a small test map, but from the way it displays on my monitor, there's only one of the texlights that i can think of being a bit bright.
lighting always seems to be the thing that i find hardest to picture in my head. and probably the hardest thing to get everyone to agree on.

about the textures. there's some in there that i really don't like, but but bits of the map are that old now, that they feel like they belong there. i had a go at using detail textures to try and spink it up a bit, but with very limited success, so they got ditched.

some of the bugs you pointed out i've already found. some are new to me.
1. already fixed
2. i remember having issues with that staircase when i was making it. there was a tunnel, an outside area, and a cellar to avoid. for some reason the little lip on the wall was intentional.
3. you just convinced me to turn all/most of the doors to world brushes, and leave them open. should even help in some small way with the r's.
4.gawd, i'd forgotten that room even existed
5.i think i'll turn that door to world, and leave it closed.
6. so much fun in ten little frames.
7. nothing there to cast any shadows, though this is the texlight that i think may be too bright.
8. a legacy from when there was a wall instead of a fence. on the to do list.
9. just a bit. and don't you love the textures in that room.
10. the room behind it was culled. on the list.
11. could be the thin floor again. and the arch under the wood looks wrong. i messed with it and tried variations, and eventually settled with that.
12. what glass?
13. looks like it's rendermode is wrong. i'll have a look.
14. well spotted.
15. i thought about a light, but couldn't figure why an empty builing would have a light in it. maybe that doesn't matter, so i'll give it a go.
16. ooh err, give it some thickness lad.
17. one of those bits that are that old that i don't even see them any more.
18. i think you're right. it wouldn't light up the wall as harshly then.
19. ah, i'd noticed that and forgot to fix it. n1.
20.there was a missing barrel. fixed already.
21. i've added more lighting in there, so the water doesn't look as bright now. i'll have another look and see if funcing it could improve it more.
22. already fixed.

there's a couple of other things that i've tweaked, and a few ideas that i've abandoned. what's left to do should be wrapped up by tommorow night.

cheers again for the bugs and pointers.





Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Sat Jul 31st at 6:37am 2004

No problem bud. I'd be happy to go through the next version too.




Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by beer hunter on Sat Jul 31st at 1:11pm 2004

Nice work there A_S

? quote:
lighting always seems to be the thing that i find hardest to picture in my head. and probably the hardest thing to get everyone to agree on.


Thats prolly down to different hardware settings and real world lighting conditions. Lighting usually ends up as a compromise - make it light enough so that its not pitch black when viewed during daylight hours but not so bright during night time that it'll burn your eyes out.

Modifying lights.rad is one way of tweaking the lights but you can also mess about with Zoners HLRAD settings, -ambient is useful to stop areas coming out pitch black, could be a bit quicker than manually editing all those lights



Quote
 Re: fishy3dm
Posted by fishy on Tue Aug 3rd at 8:01pm 2004

i think this should be the final version. unless someone has the itchy and scratchy theme as an hl compatible .wav file.

there's a problem with the longjump thing falling into the corridor below. same deal as with ferrets batteries. no matter how high it is above the ground, it still goes through, even though the ground is a level world brush. it's something i can change if i need to compile again, but it can stay where it is otherwise.

i dumped some textures to make way for some more I&S frames. they dont play exactly as i wanted them (once in a while they do), but it's still a bit of fun. use the remote to see them.

once you get to know where the weapons are, it's easy to get well tooled up pretty quickly. keep your eyes open and they're not hard to find.

other than that, enjoy. D






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