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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by scary_jeff on Sun Jun 6th at 8:32pm 2004

[Updated, new download]

Yes, once again I have revived the old castle map with a few relatively minor changes/additions, in the hope that it may get finished one day.

I couldn't find the previous thread about this map, so if I missed your suggestion, please don't flame me

I know that I need a new texture to make the large courtyard area and the 'terrace' area more interesting, but I haven't been able to find one yet. Almost all castle textures are grey, and this doesn't fit the map at all.

I have a few questions, but any suggestions or opinions will be useful:

o Is the cannon model used enough? Have I used it too much already?
o Are the barrels any good? Any ideas for something to go in the area with three barrels?
o Should I re-do the skymap?
o At the moment, the player can jump off the castle in places, and gets killed. Should I just restrict players from falling off at all? Currently there are no open edges, but it is possible to jump out in some places.
o Would it be worth trying to do water like in 'de_plaka' at all?







r_speeds stay below 600 almost everywhere. There are a couple of places where it jumps to 800, and one particular place with a spike at almost 1000 (if you look in a certain direction; it isn't a 'main traffic' area), but I should be able to reduce these spikes with hint brushes later, as wireframe mode shows quite a lot of overdraw at these points. r_speeds on the roofs that you can only get to by gauss jumping can be higher - should I not have the gauss for this reason?



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by ReNo on Sun Jun 6th at 8:39pm 2004

I'm kinda busy at this moment but will certainly take a run through later this evening

This could really be a crazy time - you, A_S and Gwil are all working on maps, could we finally see releases from you three notorious non-completers?!
[addsig]



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by Orpheus on Sun Jun 6th at 9:05pm 2004

? posted by scary_jeff
I couldn't find the previous thread about this map, so if I missed your suggestion, please don't flame me

thats because, if i remember correctly, its in V3..

[addsig]



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Sun Jun 6th at 9:13pm 2004




1. These balls have no texture. The cannon model is nice looking and isn't overused at all.



2. I got stuck in here. The wood grain pattern on the cannon seems a little strange. I've never seen a cannon made out of anything other than wood with a solid colour.



3. I wouldn't use that wall texture on the roof, the entire castle screams out for texture variation. I'm not really sure where to find better ones, but if you look at the long list of texture sites posted in the editing help section you're bound to find something useful.



4. Those walkways looks far too thick to be supported by the wall. Make them thinner and maybe insert a few wooden beams.



5. The texture around the edges of the broken pieces doesn't line up at all and ends up looking out of place.



6. Is this the high r's area you were talking about? I don't like those blue tiles, I prefer the ones that go with that avanti texture. This would be an excellent position for kiting, were the player so inclined.



7. I waited for twenty minutes to ambush someone before I realized I was playing alone. The tile texture where I'm standing isn't really appropriate.



8. You could put some cannon balls on these shelves.

Overall it's a cool map with some very nice architecture in places. You'd better finish it bud.



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by ReNo on Mon Jun 7th at 12:42am 2004

I notice that some of the points I have to make are the same as ones A_S already mentioned, but since I've taken the screenshots, your getting them anyway



Thats a couch right? If so, why is it made of bricks? Reminds me of ICO though, so thats a good thing



Too big and flat a surface, and the complex texture doesn't repeat too well which makes matters worse.



Perhaps a wooden trim around arches, windows and things?



This could definately use some pillars or support beams from the inside wall, looks like it would collapse under its own wait to be honest.



I love these little balconies and things, this one is particularly well done with the brush based guard rail.



This room I particularly like, upgrade more of your areas to look like this and it will improve the map ten fold. Could still use some texture variation (such as different bricks for the fireplace / chimney perhaps?) but looking great anyway.



The ceiling really shouldn't use the same texture as the walls so frequently, though I've no real suggestions as to what to use in its place.



I don't think the side and top textures on your stairs go together, and the third step up should probably be angled like the bottom two.



This could be a cool area if you worked on the textures a bit more. Perhaps put some wooden supports from the inside wall onto the ceiling? I also think that here and elsewhere your battlement walls are too thick.



Its easy to get in through this guard but a bit harder to get out, which is the way you are most likely to be travelling.



Not too keen on the wood grain, looks a bit wierd really. I think a plainer wood would look better in its place, if thats doable? I think you have underused the cannon if anything, you could place a couple more in this room alone!



If you can, make the roof less flat in here, and maybe break up the space with pillars?



I didn't even notice this until I looked closely. Nicely done but the background texture is too similar to the foreground texture so you can't see it easily.



Perhaps you could hide something up here for the gauss jumpers?

In general I love the connectivity and its probably the most convincing castle layout I've come across in a map. It reminds me quite a lot of a few castle maps from the original Unreal Tournament, which is a good thing considering how much I enjoyed them. It could use some work on detailing but the layout is nailed, and so it is well deserving of a fair bit more work to get it looking as good as it will play.



Here is a screenshot for Adam Hawkins' map dm_rampart showing some simple detail in a corridor. I think you could use a few ideas from it, such as stone pillars as well as wooden supports and so on.



Here is another shot of the same map, this time showing an exterior. Again, there are a few ideas you could use from it. He has also used very few textures in the map but you can pick out the architecture easier due to a small amount of variation, using basic stone trim textures and the like. I think using larger bricks like he has is beneficial as it repeats better, your standard texture looks suitably aged and all, but its too blurry and "busy" for mass repetition.

Hope these have helped and aren't all just repeats of A_S's comments!

EDIT: Was sifting through that links thread in map editing and thought this might be of use to you. Loads of medieval building photos, including plenty of castles. You have probably seen it but if not, here it is...

http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/England/maineng.html
[addsig]



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by Forceflow on Mon Jun 7th at 6:09am 2004

Looking very good, the outside part is really amazing.



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by scary_jeff on Mon Jun 7th at 8:37am 2004

Excellent, thanks for the crits guys. A lot of good ideas that I'll definately put in.

A_S - why have all your screenshots got vertical lines? It looks like you took a photo of your screen with a normal camera, had the prints processed, then scanned in the prints using a bad scanner!

1: I thought I put a texture on the ball model, but with it being my first model, I probably got it wrong. They are meant to be the same colour as the barrel of the cannon. I'll stick a couple more cannons in then as well.
2: I got stuck there to, I just need to change the clip brush for the cannon a bit.
3: A different texture for the ceiling is something I have been trying to find, so I'll keep looking.
4: I think I'll try half-arches coming out from the wall, or if that doesn't look right, perhaps some pillars... actually pillars with a wood trim could look interesting, but this is the one area where I don't have much in the way of spare r_speeds.
5: That was just an experiment, I didn't like that texture either
6/7/8: I might experiment with some different tile textures, I'll change the tile texture on the ledges and on the steps, and I will definately put some cannon balls on the shelves. I could get a 'barrel' and 'mount' model from the cannon model to have some gun barrels lying around as well.

ReNo - I left out ones that were the exact comment A_S mentioned

1: Yeah, it is supposed to be a seat. I might change it to an iron one with wooden slats or something.
2: The pillars idea is great! I could easily add some half-pillars along a lot of walls, and this would break them up a lot, particularly if I can find a pillar-suitable texture that fits in well. I was also thinking of putting a tree in the planting box that isn't next to that wall.
3: I might add some trim, perhaps a wood 'frame' of some kind, but this could add a lot to r_speeds in some areas. Worth a try though - perhaps I could make it look like there used to be a door in some of the archways, and have a couple of fallen-off or already-open doors (I'm not putting openable doors in, I hate them )
6: I think a greyer texture could work on the chimney breast, I'll definately try that.
8: Looking at yours and A_S screenshots, I think I'll just retexture the stairs completely - they don't look very good at all.
9: Again, wall supports are a great idea - expect plenty in the next version
10: I'll make the bars broken and bent out a bit so players don't have to jump to get out.
12/13/14: I think I can make this room interesting enough with the pillars idea as well as some other stuff / ok / I did have snarks up there - perhaps satchels would be fun as well.

Adam is going to send me the textures he used for that map. Perhaps I will be able to 'orangise' them a bit to fit my theme better.

I might be able to make the changes tonight, if not tomorow night



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by Gollum on Mon Jun 7th at 9:01am 2004

Ooooh, I'm looking forward to trying this one out. Feedback coming soon, if the others have left anything for me.



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by Crono on Mon Jun 7th at 9:22am 2004

? quote:

Thats a couch right? If so, why is it made of bricks? Reminds me of ICO though, so thats a good thing


gee, I wonder why

Actually, the exteriors of this map remind me of ICO ... as well as the couch ... make it a save point (just kidding).

Maybe, Jeff, you should take a look at some of the scenery in ICO for some inspiration for this map. It seems to be bleeding sunlight and doom. I think it would benefit from some ICO inspiration (maybe just download some high quality movies of ICO to see what I'm talking about). [addsig]



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Mon Jun 7th at 2:55pm 2004

The vertical lines in my screens are just a side effect from lowering the quality so much. It annoys me seperately uploading each screen, but if they're tiny they upload nice and quickly.

Found a few of textures that you might like. Two are roof tiles and one is just wood.

http://www.snarkpit.com/pits/alien_sniper/files/wood_t17.zip




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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by beer hunter on Mon Jun 7th at 8:51pm 2004

Can't really add much to Reno's and A_S's excellent comments, some stuff i can remember from last time -



1 - most roof lines end in an unrealistic sharp edge, needs a vertical overhang under them.

2 - its a pain jumping up onto the grass bits.

3 - timbers are too thick and that would fall down in real life will prolly look better with some diagonal bracing (red line). Could also use something similar on other overhanging walkways.




1 - very chunky roof edge needs thinning down.

2 - needs a feature in here - barrels, fountain etc.

3 - on some of the bigger walls with repeating tex's you could ty scaling up the tex's by 2, it sometimes works depending on the tex.

4 - add variation by using a different roof tile on some roofs.




1 - those fades end very abruptly in a noticeable line.

2 - very thick beams need reducing. R_speeds are pretty low in this room so you can prolly get away with adding another set of roof beams.

3 - ditch the stone walkway and replace it with a wooden one with balustrading, it'll look way better.

4 - handrailing usually improves stairs.


Needs sprucing up with sounds.

Definitely needs a bit more texture variation for floors and ceilings, for the ceilings try m_ceiling3 and m_ceiling4 from TFC2.WAD

"is the cannon model used enough? Have I used it too much already? " - you could get away with putting in a few more, maybe have a couple together. Suggestion - make one cannon usable and point it inwards towards some part of the castle so that its possible to kill other players

"Are the barrels any good? Any ideas for something to go in the area with three barrels? " - more barrels barrels are ok-ish but could do with retexturing or steal the barrel models from Fishy's map.

"Should I re-do the skymap?" - seems ok except for the horizon which is sharp, needs to be more hazy.

"...and gets killed. Should I just restrict players from falling off at all?" - high parapets make it pretty hard to fall off unless you deliberatley jump over, any players that fall off deserve to be gibbed.

"Would it be worth trying to do water like in de_plaka" - maybe... although most of the wall parapets are chest-high so they'll prolly obscure the sea, i s'pose it depends on how high up the sea is.


/kicks you up backside to finish it



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by scary_jeff on Mon Jun 7th at 11:14pm 2004

Wow, these are all great guys. I can't wait to make all these changes you suggested but I'm really busy with uni work for a couple of days.

A:
1) I can easily make that better, but I'm starting to think that if I implement every idea (which I would ideally do), I could end up with 1200 r_speeds
2) What do you mean here? Is it that you stick when walking over the grass, or do you just not like having to jump to get onto the planters?
3) I'll try and redo the support for that. It was the same boring bricks before.

B:
1) I might thin that down a bit. I quite like it how it is, so I'll see how it goes.
2) Again, I would like to put something here - originally there was a well that you could fall down with a hole to the lowest level at water level, but I removed this due to r_speeds. I'll have to try to make sure nothing but that area is being drawn while a player is in that area so that I can add more detail to it. I have a few ideas of how to acheive this.
3) That's a good suggestion that will also help with the r_speeds problem. I'll see how it all looks after I add the pilars that reno suggested.
4) I haven't had a chance to look at the new roof texture A_S has zipped up for me, but it sounds like the roof texture isn't that popular with you guys, so I'll probably change them all. I would quite like to have them all the same though.

C:
1) I noticed those lines to but couldn't be bothered to change them straight away and forgot about them. I think I'll make the fades a bit shorter as well.
2) Hmm, I'm quite keen on the super chunky wood. I'll see how it looks with thinner ones, but I think I'll probably keep them as they are.
3) Good idea, I think this would make the room feel a bit bigger as well. It started off feeling bigger than it does now, then I started putting things in it and it closed in so erm yeah good idea
4) Good idea also. I've decided I don't like any of the stairs in the map, so I don't have a problem redoing those ones as well

D:
Sounds are one thing I should have said haven't been looked at yet. I was thinking perhaps the odd seagul noise up top, and a lapping water type sound around the bottom of the map. I'm not sure what type of sound the middle of the map would make, for example what could the player hear standing in the corner straight ahead and to the right in the 3rd screenshot? I like to make it an aim to have at least a faint sound audible from every part of the map. Perhaps I could put a couple of generators that look like they are powering the lights (not one for each set of lights, a couple total). /me looks for generator model.

The water I was thinking of only doing around the very bottom left of the third screenshot in my first post. I'll see if there are any r_'s spare when all the other stuff is done.



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by fishy on Mon Jun 7th at 11:15pm 2004

? posted by beer hunter
barrels are ok-ish but could do with retexturing or steal the barrel models from Fishy's map.

not a problem. i believe from some of your other posts, Jeff, that you know how to hax teh models. feel free if you so desire.

[edit] i dug out the original .ms3d file with the grouping intact. twas much easier to seperate the parts that way. anyways, i broke it down to a single barrel, so it'll be easier to edit.

uhm, i hope you dont mind, but i haxed your map to see how it would look with the cannon. i'd say it's not too bad, though possibly a bit too green.

www.invalid-brush.co.uk/files/models/powder_barrel.zip if you want to use it.





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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Tue Jun 8th at 3:47am 2004

Jeff,

1. Clip off the edges of the castle to make falling impossible.

2. Coat outside of castle with null texture.

3. Rejoyce due to lower r's throughout the map.

4. Paypal me money to pay for my kidney operation.

Fishy, I agree about the keg. It looks great except for the green.




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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by beer hunter on Tue Jun 8th at 6:50pm 2004

? quote:
2) What do you mean here? Is it that you stick when walking over the grass, or do you just not like having to jump to get onto the planters?


Its just a pain to jump up onto the planters, can't help feeling that 16 unit high ones would work better and allow peeps to run around this area without getting snagged up on them.

? quote:
Perhaps I could put a couple of generators that look like they are powering the lights


Anything that adds a bit of variation is a good idea

/goes off to gawp at Fishys barrel model.



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by KingNic on Wed Jun 9th at 2:51am 2004

Can I just suggest that you open the TFC2 textures in Photoshop and run some sharpen filters on them, Couple of samples:

This is just opening the texture in Photoshop, then filter>sharpen. Some textures can 'take' 2 sharpen filters. Basically just keep sharpening until they start to look cack

[addsig]



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by 7dk2h4md720ih on Wed Jun 9th at 3:29am 2004

That's pretty neat Nic...




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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by Cassius on Wed Jun 9th at 4:13am 2004

Damn you Nic, damn you to hell!



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by scary_jeff on Wed Jun 9th at 10:46am 2004

Hey that's really nice. I'll definately try that.

Cass - I seem to remember you saying last time that you had a texture set in mind that might be sueful for me... can you remember which it was?



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 Re: sj_castle [updated]
Posted by ding on Wed Jun 9th at 6:02pm 2004

go ahead jeff - this map will be great




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