dm_swamplight
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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Feb 22nd at 5:53pm 2005


? quoting ReNo
Thing is, my computer isn't even low end, its a mid range really. I'm running a decent system bar my graphics card, which, being a GF4 ti4200, isn't exactly that bad either. Almost every map I've seen with poor performance has been so due to this swap buffers bar

i am not posting this to further brag on my new PC i promise.

perhaps its a GeForce issue Duncan. maybe driver related.

seems to me that the numbers should be similar, even though my card is bigger. (numbers of swap buffers)

what exactly are swap buffers anyways?

[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Gwil on Tue Feb 22nd at 5:55pm 2005


My P3 450 w/ 256mb RAM lagged with CS/HL/TFC (like, 10-20fps maximum) - yet ran the old WON based games like lightning on Windows 98.

So with all things considered - Steam, Windows XP, Windows generally and Half Life 2 all running, plus any other background apps you might have (firewall etc),.. I wouldn't be surprised if all that can fix that is an upgrade of GFX/CPU/RAM, ReNo. [addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Feb 22nd at 6:01pm 2005


? quoting Gwil
So with all things considered - Steam, Windows XP, Windows generally and Half Life 2 all running, plus any other background apps you might have (firewall etc),.. I wouldn't be surprised if all that can fix that is an upgrade of GFX/CPU/RAM, ReNo.

now my new machine is virtually 100% a gaming machine. i have almost nothing running in the background when i play or critique. perhaps you should run "msconfig" prior to critiquing Duncan. :/

[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by keved on Tue Feb 22nd at 6:14pm 2005


? quoting Orpheus

what exactly are swap buffers anyways?

Texture fill rate. The more env crap rendering on a texture, and the more of that texture which is on-screen, the more framerate gets totally hammered. I had the problem on Riot where I had used certain textures on the floor so I extracted the vmt text file, edited out all the extra rendering stuff, saved it with a suffix of _custom, and framerate doubled.

Valve do seem to have done something about it in the latest update though. I've been able to go back to the default textures for Riot beta 2.

I'll take a look at your new version of Swamplight shortly, Finger.





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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Feb 22nd at 7:18pm 2005


? quoting keved
? quoting Orpheus

what exactly are swap buffers anyways?

Texture fill rate. The more env crap rendering on a texture, and the more of that texture which is on-screen, the more framerate gets totally hammered.

so, given what i just read, how come reno and i got 2 different readings from the same point? shouldn't we be seeing the same crap rendering?

[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by keved on Tue Feb 22nd at 7:38pm 2005


? quoting Orpheus

so, given what i just read, how come reno and i got 2 different readings from the same point? shouldn't we be seeing the same crap rendering?

Perhaps one of you is running in dx8 mode, the other in dx9?

If you find any texture which has extra rendering stuff like bump mapping, orientate your view so that texture fills the entire screen (ie, if the texture is on the floor, crouch and look directly down). Swap buffers is likely very high. If the extra rendering effects from the texture's vmt file are removed, swap buffers would be noticeably lower in the same position (I've tried it myself).





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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Feb 22nd at 7:39pm 2005


ok, i went back and looked on my old PC.

this is duncans:

my old PC: stats 1.8 P4 512 pc2100 and a 9000 radeon 64 meg (DX 8.1)

[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by ReNo on Tue Feb 22nd at 9:33pm 2005


Wierd I was getting 20fps in that shot, and obviously the performance issues were down to the swap buffers. I wonder whats up with my system, as I have a better setup than the one you posted. Do you have your shader detail set to high or low? It could make a significant difference I guess.
[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Orpheus on Tue Feb 22nd at 10:00pm 2005


my P4 1.8 with 512-pc2100 and 64-radeon 9000

my 3500+ 64bit with 512-pc3200 and a 256 radeon 9800

before you ask, i preset my HL2 to 800x600 for critiques, i normally run it on 1024x768.. I hate resizing 2 dozen screens to fit snarkpit.

I also force my 9000 to run as 9.0 harware. for good or ill it seems to work perfectly.

[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by ReNo on Tue Feb 22nd at 11:05pm 2005


Hmm, it might be due to the fact I run with high texture detail. The recommended for my system is medium, but given that HL2 and CS:S both ran fine on high I never turned it down. Oh, and I'm running at dx 8.0.
[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Finger on Wed Feb 23rd at 4:19am 2005


Orph, thanks for the indepth review. Definately food for thought, and nice that it was generally a different perspective than Reno's. Between the two, I've got more than enough feedback to kick this level up a notch. Once addressed, I will try to respond to most observations, so you know how my changes reflect your critiques.



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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by keved on Wed Feb 23rd at 9:01am 2005


Finger, some more comments...

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300009gh.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300015dg.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300025iq.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300038nc.jpg

http://img174.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img174&image=dmswamplightb300041gz.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300056dp.jpg

http://img212.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img212&image=dmswamplightb300066po.jpg

Also, the stairs could all do with player clips. When walking up them there's a juddering effect, and when walking down them one bounces.

Very fine level though. Plenty of variety visually, I like it a lot.





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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Finger on Wed Feb 23rd at 9:56am 2005


Great stuff. I don't think I've ever had so many screenshots taken of a map before I've covered most of the observations from reno and orpheus, with tonights work. I'll shape even more up, based on your points.

You've definately caught on to one thing - I just kind of threw props in the level. I did this with the intention of proper placement later, but at the time, just wanted to get something in for playtesting.

I have already replaced the green tile floor texture with a non-bump version, so maybe that will help the swap buffer issue. I haven't had any problem with it personally (1 gig of ram maybe?), and hadn't heard of anyone from steampowered experiencing problems with that area, but those +showbudget screenies sure don't lie. Doesn't happen on my machine, though. I'll make sure it's not an issue before release, even if it means replacing textures.





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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Orpheus on Wed Feb 23rd at 11:28am 2005


? quoting Finger
Great stuff. I don't think I've ever had so many screenshots taken of a map before

i was speaking true, i do not pre-read comments posted by my mates here if i am sure i will critique a map. i dunno about the rest, but i have noticed that we each seem to have our own private niggles we look for. it didn't even occur to me about items, as i assume that until a map is completed they are only place holder items anyways. (unless its blatant like the RPG)

it is nice to know and gives you a good feeling to be associated with people who give such quality feedback.

however, *whispers to keved* you need to read my tutorial

[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by keved on Wed Feb 23rd at 3:04pm 2005


? quoting Orpheus

however, *whispers to keved* you need to read my tutorial

Sorry Orph, guess I've been using ADSL at work & home for too long now. Can't remember what a modem dialtone sounds like, or the pain of waiting for pictures to download.

Finger, there's a problem with your explosive barrels. The initial batch of barrels will first burn for a few seconds then explode, however, when a barrel has been destroyed once, from then on it will instantly explode even if hit with just 1 pistol bullet, and they won't burn or explode at all if hit by splash damage from other exloding barrels.

Maybe you're using prop_physics_respawnable for the explosive barrels? To set them up so the barrels will burn first and take splash damage, basically they should be prop_physics, increase a maths_counter when destroyed, then when all explosive barrels in the level are destroyed the maths_counter fires a point_template, which respawns the explosive barrels correctly. Take a look at the lockdown vmf for more info.





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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by ReNo on Wed Feb 23rd at 3:10pm 2005


I assumed the problem with the explosive barrels doing that was down to a bug that would probably eventually be fixed, but I guess if lockdown has them done in a different way then perhaps I'm wrong. Going by that method though, you need to destroy ALL explosive barrels before any respawn right? If so that sounds like a pretty poor workaround
[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by keved on Wed Feb 23rd at 3:23pm 2005


? quoting ReNo
Going by that method though, you need to destroy ALL explosive barrels before any respawn right? If so that sounds like a pretty poor workaround

Yep, that's right. There's either the lockdown method in which all barrels must be destroyed then they all respawn (and burn/explode properly), or use prop_physics_respawnables and put up with the only fully working barrels being the initial iterations.





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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by ReNo on Wed Feb 23rd at 3:33pm 2005


I don't get why it is like that, as there are no scenarios I can think of in which you would want a prop to act different on subsequent respawns to how it acts initially. I really hope it is just a bug/oversight that they plan on fixing.
[addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Gwil on Wed Feb 23rd at 3:34pm 2005


It's a bug - lockdown and overwatch both suffer from it. That's why it's such a bad idea to carry barrels around 5 minutes into the game.

Also, keved it seems to be sporadic as to which barrels are affected - I don't think there is a proper workaround, because i've seen the problem in all 3 of the Valve DM maps. [addsig]




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Re: dm_swamplight
Posted by Finger on Thu Feb 24th at 7:13am 2005


Well, I'm sitting around at work, waiting for stuff to happen, so I may as well take the time to respond to those who critiqued my map. I figure it would be easier to address the things I decided not to change, which were suggested; as it was the smaller number. Most of the suggestions actually resulted in some action, and I must say the map is better for it.

--------

- Reno's suggestion to incorporate trap into green-gas room:

Thought about it from the start. I actually built that room with this in mind. I decided against it, when I got the idea for the wall-hole-explosion setup. I was hesitant to do 2 traps. I am actually hesitant to do 1 trap, but the explosion seemed simple enough and not very easy to spam. You are right, the hurtie-gas would have been cool, but not as cool as an explosion IMO (unless they are locked in the room and choke to death, which is too extreme).

---------

- Orpheus suggestion to move the RPG from swamp area:

I definately understand where you're coming from, and most of the time would agree with the blanket statement that powerful weapons shouldn't be so easily accessible. There are exceptions to the rule, however, and I honestly feel that this is one (feedback from dedicated, experienced, players who tested the map with crowds, online have reaffirmed my thinking). The thing is, a powerful weapon is like a magnet, and when placed properly, can really draw people to the areas of a map that otherwise offer no real reason to traverse. Such was the case with this swamp area. I felt it was such a cool spot, but also out of the 'flow' of the map.

The rpg focuses and draws the gameplay into this area, now making it very valuable. It also has distinct disadvantages: very open, explosive barrels, hard to escape, no ammo to back up the initial rpg stock. It's a very hard area to hold also, and you get picked apart fairly quickly if trying to camp it. It also gives new players a very distinct goal that is fairly easy to find and recognize.

Also, there is a distinct flip-side to placing a powerful weapon in a difficult place to acquire. The experienced player is going to have no trouble reaching it, whereas it will be twice as hard for the noobs, and twice as easy for the experienced player to camp/control.

--------

- Orpheus suggestion to fill in the small 'gap' in the wall.

You are so right about that - there is no way it would exist in reality; it has no real functionality. But...mmm, I so love it. I tried to dress it up a little with beams and pipes, to make it seem more functional. I just couldn't resist leaving it (for now at least), as it offers such a nice sneak attack on players using that health charger. It's also a good spot to hide little items. I don't know why I am so attached to this crack. I think it's because just a few extra layers of almost meaningless connectivity, is just the kind of thing that reward people who learn the maps. It's a 'hehe, that was cool' moment that can be little gems when playing. When I weigh this against 'reality', reality loses.

Allow me this crack, that's all I ask.

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- Keved suggestion to add some stairs to the recessed area by shield charger, and clip stairs for smoother traversal.

Well, I agree that you sort of get cornered in that little area and stairs would make tha a non-issue. I honestly left if as-is, just for that reason. Being a hardcore DM player, the duck-jump has become totally second nature. It's one of those little skills that you have to master. To me there is real satisfaction and reward for out maneuvering another player, and although I don't want to 'force' players to use it for normal traversal of the map/route. I do like to incorporate it, when it feels appropriate. To me, that little spot offers a min-risk/reward scenario. It's a somewhat tight spot, and going down there for the shield charger makes you just a tad more vulnerable. The reward just a little sweeter when you are good enough to quickly pop right out and whoop some ass.

As for clipping the stairs, I will try it to see how it feels, but I wonder if 'not' having any jarring when using stairs is going to feel stranger than actually having it. You also get the weird 'standing on air' when looking at other player standing on clip brushes. Like I said, though, maybe this is actually a good idea - I will certainly see how it feels.

----

I think that's about it. Just about everything else mentioned has been used to make this map better. I sincerely appreciate the help.






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